Water Problems - Please Help!

[bluegoose972]

Here is the background. I started a 100 gal FOWLR tank about 55 days ago. The live rock was originally cured for the first two weeks in a rubber tub before being cleaned off and added to the tank. The tank went through the typical cycles with high ammonia and nitrites then leveled off about three weeks ago. I started with the addition of 5 snails and 10 hermit crabs. No problem. Then I added a snowflake eel and a dwarf lion. The eel refused to eat but the lion was eating feeders like crazy. Well, two days later, the eel was dead. I figured he had maybe starved but the lion was doing great. So, I added a dog faced puffer that had come into my lfs. Well, the next day, the dwarf and the puffer are both dead. I checked all my levels and everything looked good but the nitrite did show up a little on the test...but at very low levels. Three fish dead! So, I talked with my lfs and we did a 15 gal water change and let it sit for a couple of days. Everything looked great and the tank was crystal clear. I added another snowflake eel on last Friday and everything looked good. So, last night, I decided to add another fish. Well, they had two pork puffers that were totally buddying up so I bought both. Took them home and everything looked fine last night. This morning, both were breathing very hard when I turned on the light. By lunch time, both were dead. The eel is still fine, but breathing a little hard. Ammonia is at zero, nitrites at zero, nitrates at 10ppm. Temp at 78 deg, salinity at 1.022, and ph at 8.2. What am I missing?
That makes three puffers, a dwarf lion, and an eel that have died because I'm missing something. This is driving me nuts.
I have been dripping the fish for an hour before adding them to reduce the stress. All the snails and hermits are doing fine.

 

[beth]

What you are missing is the need to make additions to a new tank slowly. With those particuar fish, you should have added 1 at a time, 1 per month. Just because your water readings are "good" [which they actually weren't in this case] does not mean that everything is fine to stock a new tank up. Any level of nitrite is toxic. And your test kits may not be giving totally correct readings either.
Additionally, you have quite an agressive load of fish in there with fish that will get quite big.
It is essential to break in a newly established tank slowly. Adding all those fish at once, particularly all the fish you chose to add, was the mistake.

 

[bammbamm74]

from reading in my book, sounds like you have that Amoolydin (sp?) disease that affects the gills. Sometimes the fish will not show an outward appearance that they have it. I got the from the book "natural reef aquariums". Are the fish going to the top of the water to breath too?

 

[bluegoose972]

I guess I'm confused. I added a few very small hermits and a couple of small snails just so I could see how the tank was doing. After 3-4 days, I then added a 6" eel and a 3" dwarf to the tank. Maybe I confused the issue, but those were the only two fish I added. Do you think adding those two fish into a 100 gal tank would have been enough to have caused problems? I have never had more than two fish in the tank at any one time, except for last night. I agree, the nitrite level did concern me but it would only slightly jump after I added the fish and then would drop back down. The level was at zero for a week before I added any fish. When I say slightly, I'm talking approximately .25 ppm according to the chart.
After the first eel passed away, I continued to check the levels and everything was looking good before I added the dog face, which was the second fish again. Then both fish passed away that same night, but the nitrite levels showed going from zero to about .25ppm during that period.
Is that common? Maybe that is where I'm messed up. I was told by my lfs that it isn't uncommon for the nitrite level to slightly jump when a new fish is added since the bioload has increased, but will again stabalize within a couple of days. Is this incorrect?
Oh yeah...One more thing. Two puffers and an eel are too much of a load for a 100 gal tank? Not to be rude, but did you miss the size of the tank?
I really do appreciate any comments and if I'm questioning your response, it is just my nature because this situation really bothers me. I'm an animal lover to the core and the thought of killing these fish because of my ignorance really is bugging me.

 

[bluegoose972]

No, not at all. They are breathing heavy, but sitting on the bottom or in various other spots. There are no obvious problems.
I'm really thinking that there is something in my tap water which is causing the problem. I didn't mention it in my original post because the first one was long enough anyways, but I recently had a major die-off problem with my reef tank. The tank had been set up for 3 months. Then all at once, one day after a water change and the addition of calcium and iodide, the water went cloudy. Within a couple of days, all the fish and inverts had died and within a week, the corals were dead also. The lfs tested the water multiple times and even made a trip to my house and the cause was never determined. I did a major water change using RO water that I had purchased and everything is great now in that tank...Actually looks better than ever.
The water here in Lubbock is extremely hard and I don't drink it because of the taste. I did just speak with my lfs and they are gonna come over on Friday and do a complete water change and replace it with RO water. They have been having problems with their tanks also, but mainly due to the phosphate levels being a little high. But they said that most of their customers are able to use tap water with declorinator with little or no problems.

 

[bluegoose972]

I tried to feed the dwarf for the first couple of days using krill, silversides, and squid, but he would not eat. After the eel passed away, I was worried that I was starving the fish. I bought some feeders and would give the dwarf two in the morning and two at night. He would chase them like crazy. I would try and sneak in the frozen food each time in an attempt to train him off frozen food. In total, he ate 10 feeders over 3 days.

 

[bluegoose972]

The tank is set up with 4" of argonite sand/crushed coral, 60 lbs of live rock, a CPR protein skimmer, a Tetra UV sterilizer, and two 400 Emporer filters. There appears to be plenty of water movement.
The water was originally mixed in 5 gal buckets and then added to the tank. Not all the salt would desolve, but I wasn't that worried since I didn't have any fish upon the initial filling. I mixed up the sand again and then checked the salinity every day for the next couple of days. Everything looked fine.
As for the 15 gal water change, the salinity had creeped up a little to 1.024. With the evaporation and a need to lower the salinity a little, I added fresh purified water from my lfs. This filled up my tank and resulted in the salinity being lowered back down to 1.022. This change in salinity occurred after the dog face passed away and before the porks were added.
The reason I added two porks at the same time was that my lfs said that it is best to add them together if I'm wanting a pair. If I add them seperately, since they are the same species, they I may have a problem with them be territorial and fighting.
I had checked the nitrite levels both before and after the fish had passed away...Within a couple of hours of each. I was just using the quick strips for these tests, but the nitrites never showed to be high. Including last night and today. I check last night at 9pm, this morning at 6am and then again at noon. Nitrites were non-existent during this period.

 

[bluegoose972]

Aging the water? That is something new. Is that so that you can accurately check the salinity levels?
No, I have not been aging my water. But I also haven't added any saltwater....Just declorinated tap water and then the purified lfs water. Do I need to age this water also?
Just out of curiousity.....Would something like iron or rust in the water be fatal to the fish? My lfs said that they had found a simple screw in one if their tanks that they had been having lots of sickness problems with. There is always a chance that there is something in my waterlines I guess.
I went to the lfs and bought every test kit I could find. I'm going to go home and check the levels on Chlorine, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Phospate, Salinity, and PH and report back tomorrow. Maybe my test kit chemicals have expired and I'm not showing a bad result.

 

[brooklyn johnny]

It is always tough evaluating situations such as this, but after reading these posts I've been thinking. Regarding the addition of organisms to a tank, I have always found it helpful to think of them not in numbers, but in actual mass, and also figuring waste production into that. By doing this, we get a better estimate of the load that will be placed on a tank biologically. One lionfish, even at just 3 or 4 inches, will have an exponentially greater mass than 3 or 4 one inch chromis for example. Added to that, lionfish and eels are much better fed a few times a week as they take in larger meals and feed off of them slowly. Of course, that's not to say they won't eat "eat feeders like crazy." When this is done, eels and lionfish go from being great waste producers to even greater. Couple this with a new set-up and the disaster may lie there.

 

[bluegoose972]

I know...I'm rambling on here. Just hard to explain everything and don't want to leave out any details.
I was probably way to anxious about getting my tank going. And I will admit that. The first casualty was the eel. I talked with the lfs and they said that they had had it a few weeks and could not get it to eat. So, I figured that it either starved or attacked the lion and was stung. The test levels looked good. So, I added the dog face. Well, then both pass away the first night. I again check my levels...Nitrites are showing a little, but very low. I talk with my lfs and have them check the water. They don't think that the level is any where high enough to kill the lion or the dog. We speculate that maybe the dwarf and dog fought during the night. The dwarf's mouth is gapping and maybe he was hurt, but not really sure. So, no fish and good readings. I get an eel and everything is going great for a few days. Continue daily checking the levels (went through 3 bottles of test strips in the last month) and everything looks good after 3-4 days. So, I get anxious again (my bad...sorry) and decide I really would like those two cute little puffers in the window. Well, no go....two more notches on the post. I talk with my lfs and they said that every once in awhile you will have a problem tank like this. I point out that this is my SECOND problem tank.

 

[bluegoose972]

I agree on the test strips being inaccurate. I was only using them as a quick check on the system, but was also using a liquid test kit to verify results (don't know the name).
Ok..So I'm bought into the fact that I added a second fish to quickly and the inexperience thing is biting me in the butt again. I really didn't think that a 6" eel and a 6" of puffer would overload the tank that quickly (12 hours) especially if I hadn't been feeding them. The dwarf lion was the only fish that ever ate and I never left the food in the tank.

 

[jester]

over feeding lion fish. once every 2 days is good. even with feeders.
strips are ok to do a quick test, but compare the results to a real kit. It works well for me.

 

[bluegoose972]

I tried the feeding stick for three days and he wouldn't eat from it. I never did throw in the food...Ok, I did when once trying to make it look like a feeder floating down through the water stream. But he would shy away from the stick every time I would get close. I have never had such a problem feeding fish before. I have yet to get any of these fish to eat.
Ok....Let's start with a clean slate. I have one eel in a 100 gal tank. I WILL NOT BE ADDING another fish for a few weeks! Now...How do I get him to eat? Yes, I have a feeder stick, but he will not eat the fish from it. Is it a safe assumption that if I just keep trying that he will eventually get soooo hungry that he will eat off the stick?

 

[bluegoose972]

Yes, it is a bakpak. And as far as I can tell, it is doing a great job. I plan on adding a sump down the road. I just wanted to get this system up and running first before I add the external system. And I will defend this decision. The bakpak will be fine until I start putting a load on the system. I have had numerous discussions with another member of this board, pufferlover, regarding this issue and he has both his 125 and 135 gal tanks with emporers, uv's and NO skimmers, but does rely on water changes. I would say that this unit will be fine for now. The sump will come down the road and when I feel more comfortable with the top system.

 

[bluegoose972]

Don't get the wrong idea. I do appreciate your advice and all the time you've spent helping me today. I'm learning alot.
I was trying to set up a simple system to get me started before I added a sump. My tank doesn't have the internal overflow and now I wish that it did. I'm a little nervous about the external overflows because I just moved into a new house and I have these nightmare visions of the overflow not working correctly and all the water being pumped out onto the floor. Yes, I purchased a protein skimmer with the idea that I would replace it down the road with a larger unit in a sump. But I still have alot to learn and it seems that everyone has a different opinion on how to set up a sump and what things to include. So, while I'm learning, I think the 400's and bakpak should be fine.
Your right....I really didn't think about the fact that I had added 10 fish to the system in 72 hours. 10 went in, they just came out another way. So, hear is a question that maybe I'm confused upon. Isn't the ammonia and nitrites a relation of the water quality? If the ammonia and nitrites are at zero, does that mean I have good water quality? This may be the bigger issue that I have missed. I have been assuming that to be correct. But if it isn't and the water quality will be bad even with nitrites reading zero, then I'm really messed up with my old thinking.
And for the quarrantine. Right now, I just want to get the initial stocking of the tank taken care of first...So consider me to have a 100 gal quarantine tank.

 

[beth]

Yes, I did misread your tank size...I was thinking 55 not 100. Even so, 2 puffers, an eel and a lionfish? Hmmm. Perhaps you want to chat with risc in our Aggressive Forum on this one.
Some problem areas to consider:
By “aging water” we mean that the water that you are going to use for a water change should be mixed up [with salt] and then aerated for at least 48 hours prior to doing the water change. Yes, this is done so that all of the components of the water and the salt mix is adequately dissolved before it goes into your tank. Marine animals cannot be exposed to a water mix that has not been thoroughly aged. BTW: A week of aging is much better than the 48 hrs. If you are going to use tap water, I suggest aging your fresh water first minus the declorinator, then mixing the salt and again letting the mixed salt water age some more. I would suggest further that you not use tap water at all. I have the same problem in my area with tap water and have exp fish fatalities trying to cut corners by using the tap. No more. If I’m not willing to drink it, then why should my fish??
Never raise or lower your specific gravity [salinity] from 1.024 to 1.022 all at once. This is a significant and sudden change in salinity and could effect fish, inverts, coral and LR.
In terms of the crash of the old tank, if you added a lot of calcium to the water at once, this could very well have caused the cloudy water and the sudden deaths that you exp.
I think the lesson to learn here is to ease into things, rather than doing something all at once. The marine aquaria ecosystem relies on a very delicate balance based on the consistent stability of that environment; any rapid change, even though seemingly insignificant, is very significant to your contained ecosystem.
I consider .25 serious nitrite that could be deadly to marine organisms. The goal is to have no spikes in either ammonia or nitrite with the introduction of live specimens. If you are exp spikes in either, then your tank is not fully cycled. Allow your tank to “age” and then begin adding fish. One at a time, Once a month.

 

[bluegoose972]

I really didn't plan on adding many more fish. My goal was an eel, a puffer and maybe a couple of other fish, but that would be down the road. When I bought the two porks, I was already thinking that those two and the eel would probably complete the tank. I did add the dwarf into the system, but wasn't too sure about him.

 

[bluegoose972]

Beth/Anthem,
Thank both of you for your time. I did learn alot today and am really glad I asked this question. It is really hard to find factual information on how to get these tanks going. My lfs is really good to me and has been a huge help but I think they missed the boat on this one a little bit. Matter of fact, they thought I was being too conservative with adding my fish when I wanted to wait another week after the first nitrite test results showed zero. Of course, my "GO GO GO" personality said that once I reached that zero level a green light had come on and I was off to races.
I know I was frustrating you Anthem, but don't take it that I was being arrogant. For me, the best way to learn something new is to question it until I really understand.
Thanks again guys and I'll keep you posted on my tank.
Maybe one of you guys could give me some guidance on this sump setup. But I think I will let the dust settle before I start that topic!

 

[bluegoose972]

Well, I tested everything I could think of and with every kit I could get my hands on and nothing looks out of wack. The eel was laboring to breathe when I got home and just laying out in the middle of the tank. And his skill color had changed from a white to a yellow (is this a hint?) I reached down with the feeder stick and gave him a nudge and he didn't even react.....Looked like he was on his last leg. So, I made a plastic container for him out of a clean plastic bowl and lid combo, drilling several large holes in it for water flow, but not large enough for his escape. Transplanted him directly into my reef tank and his new home. Checked him this morning and it looks like he is making a good recovery. He is active again and his color looks better and his breathing is back to normal.
Something that I can not check has the water quality messed up. The lfs is coming in tomorrow to do a complete water change for me and then we will see how things go. I imagine that I'll end up starting the cycling process over again to a certain degree but it should go faster with the cured live rock.