Wet/Dry bio-balls question...

[footbag]

In the sump of my wet dry, there is a thin layer of brown gunk. Below the bio balls there are piles of it. The tank has been running for 5 years and I'm guessing that this is whats causing the nitrate and phosphate problems I'm having now. Should I clean this out? It must be organic waste, right?

 

[goldrush]

What size tank? Do you have enough live rock? How deep is sand bed? Your goal should be to get rid of bio-balls (sloooowly),maybe 20% a week over 5 weeks(example). Do this only if you have enough live rock.

 

[footbag]

I have a 90g reef tank that is nearly full with live rock, no sand. Maybe in my refugium if I ever get to building one. Just ordered caulerpa. I kind of like it in the tank for now, but need a refugium for nitrate / phosphate processing.

 

[goldrush]

If your 90 has that much live rock you don't need bio-balls. Start to remove them a little at a time.As for the caulurpa,there is nothing better than macro algae to control phosphate and nitrate,but I strongly reccommend you do it in a refugium. The main reason is that it spreads before your eyes.Once it gets going you'll have a hard time pruning it out.

 

[mykgillespie]

I agree with Goldrush, get rid of the Bio-Bombs...I mean balls A DSB would also be very helpful to you in the long run so if that's not possible for you at this point with the tank already established, then try to get a refugium going ASAP. Just something to add though, depending on the macros, they will have no problems controlling Nitrate and Phosphate, but will have a hard time bringing it down. Try diluting the PO4 and NO3 with a series of water changes AND some filter mediums specific for removing those compounds. Keep in mind that this process might take some time as your LR and other porous substrates will have absorbed some of this PO4 and will leach it back out as you remove it. So if you run a PO4 resin and initially see no drop go ahead and repeat it as you may have quite a bit to get rid of. Try the Seachem or Fritz brand PO4 removers, I recommend these because I've used both with good results and they do not release the PO4 back to the system if you forget to pull them out. Nitrates can be easily controlled with a DSB. By the way what type of protein skimmer do you have?
Myk.

 

[slick]

This is jmo. I use a wet dry with bio balls. I use a pre filter (filter floss) plus a sponge in my overflow. I have not had any problems with junk getting into my bio balls yet. 8 mts. I think as long as you filter the water before it hits the balls you should be ok.
But you will want to clean out the junk that you have.

 

[xxvietxjustinxx]

I have the same as slick, but as soon as my lr is cured, the foam and bioballs are going out and the lr is going in the sumb

 

[jja]

I have been using the bio-balls successfully now for 18 months. There is no gunk on them as people say. Have a strong pump and prefilters (changed weekly) and you shouldn't have any problems. However, I do use a small siphon to clean out the stuff on the bottom of the sump that you are talking about. Get that out and you should solve your problem. If this has been running for 5 years it should definitely be done. If it is real bad take all the water out of the sump, wipe it down and mix some new saltwater at the same salinity and temp as what's in your tank and you will see a huge improvement. (I did this once before but now siphon the sump about once a month-(takes 3-4 minutes)

 

[thomas712]

Here we go again with people wanting to take out their bio balls and put liverock in its place.
Why would you want to go from bio balls that offer more surface area per volume to liverock that offers less surface area?
More surface area, more bacteria, higher bio load. And people want to deliberatly cut that down? Then we have the oxygen issue. Those little spikes on bio balls are there for a reason not only are they maximizing the surface area they are breaking the water up that comes in contact with them, the more they break up the more it is exposed to the air, therfore more gas exchange and that with the bacteria is what make them so efficiant at breaking down the ammonia and nitrites. By adding liverock instead your cutting surface area and gas exchange, why would you do that .
A little maintinace and you can't go wrong with the bio balls. Bio balls do a great job in breaking down the leathal ammonia and nitrites INTO NITRATES, Its up to the person to have a plan on the removal of the nitrates, whether it be water changes or DSB or whatever.
Bio balls are not Nitrate factories, or bombs. Unless people are just to lazy to take care of their equipment then all kinds of things go wrong.
Thomas

 

[mykgillespie]

The name of the game behind the removal of bio-balls is to take a more natural approach to water purification. As far as I know, no one has yet discovered bio-balls in the ocean, but what has been found is a complex network of porous rock, fine sand, and a multitude of small critters and plants living within each. Bio-balls will work well for their purpose, such as breaking down Ammonia down to Nitrates, much like in wastewater treatment facilites where they came from. All I'm saying is that in this hobby we try to do things as naturally as possible, if your LR and DSB is not enough to support the livestock in a given tank, then the fish are probably cramped. Why not take the $300 or $400 that you'd of spent on a wet/dry and buy a killer skimmer?. Just my opinion though.
Myk.

 

[tangman99]

I have read a couple of articles that show a wet/dry can be counter productive to a DSB and live rock. Sorry, I can't find them. I know you don't have DSB, so this may not apply to you specifically. I did remove my bio-balls when I switched over to a DSB and live rock. My Nitrate levels were always between 40 and 80 before I made the switch. After the switch and a major waterchange, my nitrates were around 15. Over the next 6 weeks, I slowly removed the bio-balls. The Nitrate level dropped to between 5 and 10 and stayed there during this time. After all the bioballs were removed, the nitrates dropped to practically 0 in a couple of weeks. That has been my experience.
I did find this text in a post by our very own Shark, Bang Guy. The majority of the people on this board respect his knowledge and status. Here is his reply on the subject of using a wet/dry with a DSB and liverock. I hope he does mind me quoting him.
Wamp - My research (non-scientific as of yet) indicates that a DSB (or even live rock) needs a concentration of Nitrate several time higher than the tank water to be effective in lowering Nitrate.
The only means of concentrating Nitrate for the sand bed is to have the Nitrate produced on the surface of the sand bed and slowly flow down to the lower depths of the bed through worm holes (and other sand bed infauna).
If the majority of the Nitrate is produced remotely in a trickle filter then the water flowingthrough the sand bed has a diluted concentration of Nitrate. ie. The concentration of Nitrate just below the surface of a sandbed without a trickle filter is in excess of 100ppm. The Concentration of Nitrate just below the surface of a sand bed WITH a trickle filter is about double the water level. In the cases I've tested the level ranged from 10ppm to about 40 ppm. I believe this makes a very big difference.
Tricklt filters with a very high gas exchange are MUCH better at converting Nitrite to Nitrate. They are so good at it that I think the sandbed is deprived of Nitrite and is less able to convert the Nitrate to Nitrogen gas.
The number and diversity of sand bed infauna is another huge variable so my results may be just anecdotal.
Guy

 

[leboeuf]

moral of the story? take out your balls and wash them in saltwater, right? Keeps the build up from large debri from crashing your tank.

 

[thomas712]

Lets see. Moral of the stroy is:
1. Yes if you are using bio balls then rinse them in saltwater or RO water but not all at one time only a gallon or two of the bio balls, rinsing them all at once could disrupt to much of the benifical bacteria colonies.
2. Bio Balls are not the only answer. Some do prefer a more natural way including removal of the bio balls and using liverock or not, and letting the DSB convert the nitrates into nitrogen gas.
Myk - Thankfully I did not spend that much on a wet/dry myself, only about 100 to make one out of acyrilic. Your point is made though in a more natural aproach.
Tangman99 - True enough my consideration is not with the DSB in the equation of the wet/dry bioball topic. True enough the Bang Guy is knowledgable and respected and I join in the majority who think so. {who knows someday I may even start selling Bang Guy bumper stickers j/k}
In regards to the amount of bio balls I believe that what we see in all the prefab models out there that there is way to much room deticated to the amount of bio balls in the tower or chamber when I think that half that amount (which is how I built mine) would suffice. So in effect I too have removed half of the bio balls, a nessessity for the room in the sump area. My personal feeding regiem has given me very low nitrtates. So I do know that bio balls are not the only way.
I still feel that there are way to many people who jump at the chance to say. Oh bio balls are a nitrate factory! or they are a bomb waiting to go off! They are evil!. Thats just not true IMO.
Thanks for letting me ramble.
Thomas

 

[mykgillespie]

Point well taken Thomas712. Just like all else in this hobby the only "correct" way of doing something is to do what works best for the individual. I guess I am a bit harsh on the little guys those little blue balls never meant to hurt anyone
Myk.

 

[tangman99]

Thomas712,
I agree with the little green guy from Monsters, Inc. Point well taken. It is true there are many ways to do things and nothing is carved in stone as right or wrong. You are always welcome to ramble.
OK everyone! GROUPHUG!

 

[.357]

of corse there is noting like distroying nature to bring a little of what nature intended in to your home.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by footbag
I have a 90g reef tank that is nearly full with live rock, no sand. Maybe in my refugium if I ever get to building one. Just ordered caulerpa. I kind of like it in the tank for now, but need a refugium for nitrate / phosphate processing.
the only reason you need a refugium is to protect the macro from livestock in the tank. Macro algae/plants will reduce the phosphates and nitrates, complete the cycle, filter out all types of bad stuff and even buffer the ph. I culture macro of various types in an old 20g long and transfer some every now and then to the display tank. I really enjoy the flowing plants in the display but then that is not for everyone. nitrates are tending down in the 55g display 55g, and have been zero since the third week in the macro algae tank.

 

[crazy8]

Bio-balls or not -- is there anyone out there that does not do water changes at all?
After my 6 week cycling period (with 90 lbs of LR and 100 lbs of reg sand in a 55 gal) I didn't do a water change.
I have added 3 fish in the following 3 weeks and my trates still are at 0. Maybe my bio-load will catch up when I add more, maybe not. My goal is not to have to do water changes at all. Is that a possibility in this hobby?

 

[.357]

I don't think you will be able to get by with out doing water changes. You should also be watch how quick you are adding fish. You have a lot of time and $$ invested to crash it now.

 

[sal t. nutz]

I have been up for over a year without a water change. I have a Wet/Dry, LR, DSB and yes BIO-BALLS. All of my water readings are perfect. I stand behind Bio-Balls, they are great at their job, and there is NOTHING as of now that you can put in your aquarium that can do the job that they do as effectively per sq/inch.
Another note, Sea-World uses Bio-Balls, need I say more? Does anyone here claim to know more or have a more successful tank than Sea-World? Anyone here have dolphins and whales? Enough said.