Wet/Dry vs Canister

[nate_m]

Current FOWLR (live sand bed) 50g tank has a canister filter. Thinking of making the upgrade to a reef.
My question is simple. Is a wet/dry filter recommended as opposed to a canister?
I was looking at the Cyclone Bio-Filters which includes a skimmer (which i currently don't have). Any using this product? Any other wet/drys that come highly recommended? Worth $400 to upgrade from canister?
Thanks!
- Nate

 

[bchbum189]

speaking from personal knowledge, i started with a canister filter, and never could really get nitrates to stay down even with alot of maintanance, switched to a sump/refugium with skimmer(previously no skimmer) and havent looked back since, tanks alot more stable and nitrates and other unwanted nutrients greatly reduced.
Never used a wet/dry filter, but from what i hear they are failry out of date kind of technology, but im sure they are still better than a canister.

 

[stanlalee]

If your upgrading to a reef get a refugium/skimmer (and definately dont pay $400 unless that includes the skimmer). Wet dry's arent known to keep nitrate levels low, they just quickly process ammonia due to the type of bacteria that flurish in the oxygen exposed bioball area.
A refugium with macro and/or deep sand bed and protein skimmer seem to be the filter of choice for reef tanks. there is no mechanical filter or pad to harbor detritus and thus nitrate factory, the skimmer removes much of the organic waste before it can be broken down into nitrates and what nitrates remain are either used up by the macro algae for growth or broken down into nitrogen by denitrifying bacteria in the deep sand bed if you chose to use one. Macro also removes phospates the same way and a deep sand bed grows organisms who's larvae help feed the corals. I have never known anyone with a macro or deep sand bed fuge and protein skimmer to have nitrate problems. Macro also helps maintain pH by exchanging carbon dioxide for oxygen.
With a wet dry you still have to clean or replace the filter pad and the bioballs when/if detritus accumulates and you still have to remove nitrates via water changes. Fuges require virtually no maintenence other than occasional skimmer and return pump cleaning, water changes are virtually never done due to high nitrate readings (mostly just for trace element replinishing and to maintain pH and alk without constant dosing) and there are so many secondary benefits to boot.
Wet dry has its place. In a heavily stocked fish only set up where zero nitrates arent the goal they are capable of processing much more waste than a fuge (much more capable of breaking down ammonia and nitrite) just not the removal of nitrates which are relatively harmless in a FO set up. Both benefit equally from a skimmer but a fuge system probably needs it more.

 

[nate_m]

The fuge / skimmer option looks promising. I'm stuggling with nitrates and I'm guessing its from the canister filter. I found a "AquaFuge Pro Refugium" for $400 which includes the skimmer. Are all skimmers created equal or should I go a different route and purchase a stand alone skimmer?
Are lights a must for a fuge? I'm guessing thats dependant on what kind of stuff will be in the fuge. This unit comes with power compacts.
My only other concern is the lack of mechanical filtration. I plan to have several 3-5 fish in the aquarium. Is it a good idea to get rid of all mechanical filtration?
Thanks for all the help.
- Nathan

 

[stanlalee]

the CPR aquafuge is alright but there are better options mainly because for the same price you can get the same size or larger fuge with a better stand alone skimmer. You shouldn't need to spend more than $20 on lighting either via coralife 18w pc mini aqualight or equivalent or hardware store/plant light.
For example I bought this fuge for $200. It included acrylic sump, overflow box, return pump, all plumping and return spout and 18w coralife mini aqualight (all of which I'm using on my 30g tank to plump a $10 10g walmart tank fuge I made). Only thing I would need to add is the skimmer if I hadn't used the other stuff for my other tank (which I chose the coralife SS125 you see there for $108). Thats $100 cheaper overall before you factor in the cost of plumping, pump and overflow box if your tank isn't drilled. that stuffs gonna cost about another $100 and the skimmer is still inferior to the $110 stand alone coralife. even if you bought a $200 skimmer you'd come out cheaper and superior.

As far as mechanical filtration if you have true reef safe inhibitants you wont miss mechanical filtration at all. In other words if you keep fish that wont eat hermits, snails and shrimp a reef system takes care of itself. the fuge will grow amphipods and other creatures by the 100s or 1000s which spend all night further cleaning up uneaten food and detritus. You only run into problems when you keep something like a lunare wrasse or blue throat trigger that wont bother corals but may decide to eat your clean up crew. Even if a filter works to clean that up it will just sit in the filter causing elevated nitrates or excessive maintenence, hence few people do aggressive reefs. If you were doing that a thin layer of crushed coral might actually work better since you can vacuum it out during water changes.

 

[nate_m]

Wow! Thanks so much for the picture and the skimmer recommendation. I found another site with many more options for the acrylic fuge/sump and I think one of those will work quite well. Need to check dimensions when I get home to make sure it will fit under my 50g corner. I'm pretty sure I understand the plumbing issues since my tank isn't drilled.
Thanks so much for all the info. One other question sort of off topic.
Where do the pods/worms/algae (i.e. fuge inhabitants) come from?
Thanks again!
- Nate

 

[stanlalee]

Originally Posted by Nate_m
Where do the pods/worms/algae (i.e. fuge inhabitants) come from?
Thanks again!
- Nate
Easy answer: Live rock. It takes a while for them to start showing but they are in there. If you buy a coral rock (like mushrooms or zoos on a piece of liverock) they almost always have pods/worms/
the macro algae you'll have to buy or get from someone. Anybody who has cheatomorpha will probably give you a clump to start out with since it grows so fast and easily.

 

[bchbum189]

Originally Posted by Stanlalee
Fuges require virtually no maintenence other than occasional skimmer and return pump cleaning
that and every couple of weeks i have to pull handfulls of macro out and sell it back to the lfs cause ive got to much! My one handfull of macro i bought has paid for itself 30 times over already

 

[nate_m]

Ran into a pretty big snag.
I can't get any refugium to fit under my 50g corner

HOB really isn't an option because the tank is so close to the wall.
Almost seems like a DIY job and thats probably more than i can tackle.
Is there any chance I can have my skimmer stand alone (i.e. not in the fuge)? Then pump that water into a 10g fuge and then back up to the main tank?
Any help is appreciated!

 

[stanlalee]

There is guy on here screen name Bob A. who I traded lights with who had a pretty nice 54g corner reef tank with fuge. I'm sure it was bigger than 10g (I believe it was a 15g) but if he's still around the board may be able to give you some insight on what will fit.
There are several acrylic fabricators that can make you a sump to your demenions or in odd shapes to fit a skimmer and refugium together under your cabinet.
If your only option is a 10 gallon there is no reason you cant have a fuge and skimmer in that. a 10 gallon is 20" long and AquaC Urchin protein skimmer is very good sump skimmer and only requires a skimmer section of 5" and several 600gph pumps are available that only require about a 3" return pump section (like the viaAqua I use or Rio if you want to go there). Granted the fuge section will be small but it should work well enough (works well enough to keep my trates and phates at zero with twice a day feeding. My 10g fuge (tacky but functional. I COULD have made the skimmer and pump section smaller and fuge section larger if I had been forward thinking.

If you cant get the baffles cut or do it yourself there are kits on egay with pre cut baffles for 10g or whatever size tanks and all you need to do is silicon the baffes in place which a moron can do (see my silicon job lol). those kits probably cost more than they should but they are well under $100 and a 10g cost $9.99 at walmart. add $10 for silicon and cheap gun

 

[nate_m]

Here is a absolute maximum dimension of the setup my cabinet can hold.

Once I get a better idea where the baffels should go based on skimmer/ pump I can get a quote to see how much the custom route will cost. Based on these dimensions what skimmer is the best fit?
Any suggestions on where the baffels should go based on the above image? Each square is 1". If this tank was 15" tall it would be approximately 16g.
Thanks,
- Nathan

 

[theappe]

Dont mean the hijack the thread, but might as well since we are on topic anyways and Im sure that the info will help you out. I have a HOB fuge that I want to put in my 30g. Only thing is that I have a slight problem, in order to put it in i need to remove my HOB filter. Will I have a problem if I remove my filter. Will the nitrates go up due to the fact that Im removing the bacteria that has been established there already? BTW I have a reef tank.

 

[nate_m]

theappe: I'm guessing your HOB filter only contribues to nitrite and ammonia break down. If you have adequate natural filtration you will be ok. From what I've learned the last few days the fuge should help the nitrate issue.
Back to my little quandry:
Here is an updated diagram of my fuge:

Not sure how much of a baffel size there should be. I also have a question about adjusting flow rates. Are siphon overflows adjustable to make up for the pump rate back to the main tank? Guess I don't see how you guarantee that 'water in' is = to 'water out' all the time.

 

[nate_m]

First quote is in on the custom solution. $429 for just the tank!
Might visit home depot tonight :scared:

 

[cgrant]

I am making my sump out of a 40 gallon long aga ~$90.00 (48x13x16)
heres a quick pic

 

[supermanvx]

ya just get a 25-30g tank possibly even 40, and then go to lowes/home depot and get 1/4" plexiglass and 100% silicone...measure make the baffels, silicone them in. and your done...youll see it at around 100 bucks MAX just for the refuge/sump, then throw in the cost of everything else...i upgraded my FO 180 to a 180reef...and i made my refugium out of a 60g...you could do alot...premade is just over priced IMO

 

[supermanvx]

but if you really wanna go crazy with a refugium AND canister. check this out:

 

[nate_m]

I can't just buy an already built aquarium and add baffels because I need a weird shape because I have a corner tank.
How hard will it be to take glass/plexi and built the entire tank?

 

[supermanvx]

Originally Posted by Nate_m

I can't just buy an already built aquarium and add baffels because I need a weird shape because I have a corner tank.
How hard will it be to take glass/plexi and built the entire tank?
on i see what your showing now...possibly...you could do this...
get two tanks...one that will go under the overflow into the corner...(rectangle) and another tank that will go from that tank to the other corner...then you seperate your refuge from your sump...more refugium space

 

[supermanvx]

hmm no thats a bad idea to have 2 tanks. because i just notice you only have 18" to work with in length...not sure on this one man...but i think you got the right idea...but instead of baffles like that...youd make it so the water would overflow into the next chamber