What are my odds here??

[chevyblue96]

Ok, so where to start....
About 3 days ago:
I checked all fish around noon, everyone was happy and healthy.
Around 4pm, I check again. Everyone happy/healthy, except the Flame Angel.
Flame had went from perfect condition to covered in white-ish specks within 4 hours. However, he was still eating/swimming just fine with no signs of distress.
I immediately caught him, and moved him to another tank (although, that's another issue. I did not have another cycled tank ready... more on that later).
Anyway. It's been 3 days now. All the other fish in the main tank have still NOT shown any signs of anything.
I've read and been told that if it was ich, they will all have it now.
My questions are:
1) if they were all going to get it, then wouldn't I see some sign of it by now in the 3 days, especially since the Flame was so covered? I have a cleaner shrimp in the main tank... wondering if maybe the others being healthy/not stressed, combined with the cleaner they can avoid it??
Flame was newest to tank, and somewhat stressed. He had been chased by the tang. (Tang also still shows no signs at all)
As for the Flame, he's in the only other tank I have at the momment, and it's small. 5 gal. hex.
I have copper to treat him with, but need to go get the test kit for it. He's still swimming, eating. I'm wondering if he has any chance of even making it, since the tank isn't a cycled tank. I've been changing out his water (50%) daily in hopes to keep things liveable for him.
Any input on all this would really be appreciated. I'm really hoping either the others are strong enough, not to catch it, or maybe it's not ich at all??

 

[btldreef]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chevyblue96 http:///forum/thread/384712/what-are-my-odds-here#post_3371094
Ok, so where to start....
About 3 days ago:
I checked all fish around noon, everyone was happy and healthy.
Around 4pm, I check again. Everyone happy/healthy, except the Flame Angel.
Flame had went from perfect condition to covered in white-ish specks within 4 hours. However, he was still eating/swimming just fine with no signs of distress.
How long have you had this flame? Do you have any pictures?
I immediately caught him, and moved him to another tank (although, that's another issue. I did not have another cycled tank ready... more on that later).
Anyway. It's been 3 days now. All the other fish in the main tank have still NOT shown any signs of anything.
I've read and been told that if it was ich, they will all have it now. Very true. It's in your system.
My questions are:
1) if they were all going to get it, then wouldn't I see some sign of it by now in the 3 days, especially since the Flame was so covered? I have a cleaner shrimp in the main tank... wondering if maybe the others being healthy/not stressed, combined with the cleaner they can avoid it?? No. You might never see it on any of them, but it is still present in your tank. A healthy, happy, well fed fish might never show signs of it. If they have a strong immune system, they are able to fight off the visible presence of it, but it is in your tank regardless of whether you see it or not. The only way to truly not have ich in your tank is to remove all fish and treat them and leave your tank fishless for 6-8 weeks. I have to say from personal experience, I have ich in my tank. I know it's there. My cleaner shrimp, cleaner wrasse and good feeding habits help make it invisible to the human eye. I'm getting ready to move and when I do, these fish will all get treated before they go into the new tank. Ich is manageable, I've had it in my tank for months. Tangs and all other fish are fine. But if I were to add a new fish and it were to become stressed or stress one of my existing fish, it would probably become visible again. Ich isn't a death sentence, it can be managed. That being said, I believe your tank is a newer setup and you're not done stocking it yet and are considering an upgrade as well. You might want to consider that upgrade sooner than later, and not add anymore fish to this existing setup. Once you get the upgrade, treat your fish in hypo for 6-8 weeks and you should be good.
Flame was newest to tank, and somewhat stressed. He had been chased by the tang. (Tang also still shows no signs at all)
That will do it. The flame got stressed, and ich attacked it. Once they're stressed, they don't have as strong of an immune system to fight off the visible presence of it.
As for the Flame, he's in the only other tank I have at the momment, and it's small. 5 gal. hex.
I have copper to treat him with, but need to go get the test kit for it. He's still swimming, eating. I'm wondering if he has any chance of even making it, since the tank isn't a cycled tank. I've been changing out his water (50%) daily in hopes to keep things liveable for him.
Copper isn't the only solution for ich. Stay on top of the water parameters. You might want to consider hypo instead. Copper can stress some fish out.
Any input on all this would really be appreciated. I'm really hoping either the others are strong enough, not to catch it, or maybe it's not ich at all?? This is my other question. It probably is ich, but if you can post a pic, it will help.

 

[slice]

I also have ich in my tank, have had it for months. I am preparing to trap the fish and treat them while the DT remains fishless for 6-8 weeks.
The only thing I could add is to upp the nutrition of the fish in the DT until they can be treated. A good vitamin soak of quality food once a week or so will
help them keep up their immune system. It will make a huge difference.
This is how I have been able to manage having ich in the tank until I can get the HT going.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chevyblue96 http:///forum/thread/384712/what-are-my-odds-here#post_3371094
Ok, so where to start....
About 3 days ago:
I checked all fish around noon, everyone was happy and healthy.
Around 4pm, I check again. Everyone happy/healthy, except the Flame Angel.
Flame had went from perfect condition to covered in white-ish specks within 4 hours. However, he was still eating/swimming just fine with no signs of distress.
I immediately caught him, and moved him to another tank (although, that's another issue. I did not have another cycled tank ready... more on that later).
Anyway. It's been 3 days now. All the other fish in the main tank have still NOT shown any signs of anything.
I've read and been told that if it was ich, they will all have it now.
My questions are:
1) if they were all going to get it, then wouldn't I see some sign of it by now in the 3 days, especially since the Flame was so covered? I have a cleaner shrimp in the main tank... wondering if maybe the others being healthy/not stressed, combined with the cleaner they can avoid it??
Flame was newest to tank, and somewhat stressed. He had been chased by the tang. (Tang also still shows no signs at all)
As for the Flame, he's in the only other tank I have at the momment, and it's small. 5 gal. hex.
I have copper to treat him with, but need to go get the test kit for it. He's still swimming, eating. I'm wondering if he has any chance of even making it, since the tank isn't a cycled tank. I've been changing out his water (50%) daily in hopes to keep things liveable for him.
Any input on all this would really be appreciated. I'm really hoping either the others are strong enough, not to catch it, or maybe it's not ich at all??

And you would be correct. However as soon as any stress, be it a new arrival, a fight over territory, a water change that upsets a fish...and it breaks out anew and by sheer numbers will even kill the healthy fish.

The angel will be restressed as soon as you put it back in the main tank, then it may infect the others because it will be the first to break out. This happened to me with my tiny Hippo tang. He was the only one to get sick all the time, even a water change would get the cycle going in full bloom. Removing him was a waste of time..As soon as I put him back BREAKOUT of ich! AAHHH.

I had a full reef. I gave up the fight, the meds were killing the coral and not helping the fish at all. I just fed them chunks of shrimp soaked in fresh garlic juice because I was told it will help the immune system. I got a couple of cleaner shrimp because they eat the ich parasites off of fish. Then I let nature take its course.

I lost no fish to my amazement, nor did I purchase anymore fish because I knew the tank was infected. After a year I had to move...very stressful to say the least. Not one outbreak. Without a host for so long I guess the ich died off. I have since added new fish with no problems. Come June it will be 3 years clear.

I don't know why this worked for me, it just did. In a big tank with fish, coral and inverts, a QT to hold all the fish for 6 to 8 weeks was just not do-able.

In the end and hind sight being 20/20 a quarantine tank for a new fish would have saved me untold grief.

 

[btldreef]

Yup, good food and keep them stress free. It helps to boost the temperature up a little in the tank as well, which is tough if you have a lot of corals. My SPS really doesn't like the tank at 80, so I've compromised and keep it at 78-79.

 

[chevyblue96]

I've had the Flame for probably a little over a week.
The lady at my local fish store QT him for me in her tank, and he never showed signs of anything, so I assume it must of been stress from the tang chasing him.
I will try to get a pic. but honnestly the lights in the 5 gal SUCK, and they are hard to see with my eyes in there so I don't know if they will show on a pic or not. I will however, attempt to get one.
In the main tank, you could see them really well. Looked almost like he had little bubbles stuck all over him.
I didn't want to add any fish after this one. The Flame was going to be the end of my stock list. However, now I'm thinking... Crap, even if I do get him over this, If I put him back in the main tank, the tang will chase him again, stress him and bang, we start all over again.
Hubby felt bad for me. I love this flame... and brought home some stuff called ich-x (says on bottle reef tested) however, I have 2 anemones, as well as shrimp, hermits, and snails... I'm not sure if this would be something to use or not....
so wish I coudl get that bigger tank like NOW and hurry up on getting it cycled. But it's looking like that would still be atleast a month or two away from being possible.

 

[btldreef]

Well, this is what I'd suggest for the time being:
He's not the only fish that has ich. If he was QT'd before adding to this tank, he likely got it IN this tank. Regardless, the tank has it now. I would attempt to rearrange the rock work and leave the lights off for the day and put the flame back in. Might want to do a quick fresh water dip on the flame before, but it won't matter too much, ich is in the tank he's going to go in. Increase the temp a little as well and feed good foods with vitamins to keep their immune system up.
If the change in rock work/boosted temp/etc doesn't work and the flame looks bad, put him back in the 5G. He's small right?
At least while you try to have him in the DT, you can cycle the QT some more.
This should hold you over until you upgrade. Once you upgrade, swap rocks and inverts to the new tank and hypo all your fish.
I'm not sure about ich-x. I've never treated ich with anything but hypo.

 

[chevyblue96]

Forgive me, my camera sucks... Having to use the cell phone as my other one is dead. However, you can sort of see one of the spots between the top of his head and the beginning of his top fin.
Best I could do with crappy lighting for now. He doesn't have nearly as many spots today however....

 

[chevyblue96]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BTLDreef http:///forum/thread/384712/what-are-my-odds-here#post_3371104
Well, this is what I'd suggest for the time being:
He's not the only fish that has ich. If he was QT'd before adding to this tank, he likely got it IN this tank. Regardless, the tank has it now. I would attempt to rearrange the rock work and leave the lights off for the day and put the flame back in. Might want to do a quick fresh water dip on the flame before, but it won't matter too much, ich is in the tank he's going to go in. Increase the temp a little as well and feed good foods with vitamins to keep their immune system up.
If the change in rock work/boosted temp/etc doesn't work and the flame looks bad, put him back in the 5G. He's small right?
At least while you try to have him in the DT, you can cycle the QT some more.
This should hold you over until you upgrade. Once you upgrade, swap rocks and inverts to the new tank and hypo all your fish.
I'm not sure about ich-x. I've never treated ich with anything but hypo.
So the flame showing visible signs will not increase the other fish being effected? Another words, the other fish shouldn't start showing signs just because the flame is correct?

 

[flower]

Ich-X, Kick ich they say reef safe, that means corals and inverts..HOWEVER they make the coral look sick and the inverts too, anemones and tube worms looked the worst. The sad thing is it does not work. I lost my clowns to a secondary infection of fin rot which I believe was caused from the meds, it said on the bottle if memory serves that sometimes secondary infections happen.
The moment you moved the fish from the fish store QT to your house, it was stressed and the tang didn't help. Just moving the flame from the QT to your main tank will stress it again.
I forgot to mention I upped the tank temp to 82 as well. The only coral to not like it was a Pagoda cup.... it died. Until you get the new tank up...work on managing the ich. Don't purchase any new fish. Moving the rocks might get the tang to leave the angel alone, because it's a fight over territory.

 

[chevyblue96]

My temp is currently about 80 degrees. Wonder if I should up it another degree or two?
I'm about to go start moving rocks I guess. I hate having to move them. It's a pain getting them back in place, and right now it's almost perfect with little hidey holes/caves everywhere.
*sigh*
Who knew this could be such a pain...
Now, next question.... If I get another tank and hypo the fish. Do the inverts stay in the tank with them during hypo or go directly into the new tank? If they go in the new tank without the fish... 1 how will the clean up crew make it with nothing to clean up, and two, won't I have issue of having fish in a tank with no clean up crew?

 

[btldreef]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chevyblue96 http:///forum/thread/384712/what-are-my-odds-here#post_3371109
So the flame showing visible signs will not increase the other fish being effected? Another words, the other fish shouldn't start showing signs just because the flame is correct?
Correct. They have it either way. As long as they stay healthy and unstressed, you should continue to NOT see it on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chevyblue96 http:///forum/thread/384712/what-are-my-odds-here#post_3371112
My temp is currently about 80 degrees. Wonder if I should up it another degree or two?
I'm about to go start moving rocks I guess. I hate having to move them. It's a pain getting them back in place, and right now it's almost perfect with little hidey holes/caves everywhere.
*sigh*
Who knew this could be such a pain...
Now, next question.... If I get another tank and hypo the fish. Do the inverts stay in the tank with them during hypo or go directly into the new tank? If they go in the new tank without the fish... 1 how will the clean up crew make it with nothing to clean up, and two, won't I have issue of having fish in a tank with no clean up crew?
Ich sucks! I was sooooo upset when I first discovered it in my tank.
The inverts/corals can no survive hypo. They can go to the new tank. This will mean two tanks running at the same time. They may need to be fed a tiny amount here and there.
As for the hypo tank without a clean up crew, you will have to be the clean up crew.
My suggestion would actually be to hypo the fish in the new tank and leave the corals and inverts behind in the old one. This way you can hypo without killing your live rock and live sand. It will be a bigger tank, so you can provide more PVC piping for the fish to hide as well.

 

[flower]

You don't have to move all your rock, just a piece or two where mr. mean tang hangs out, and make it look a little different.

 

[chevyblue96]

Thank you all for all the info.! I will update this threat later today and keep everyone posted on how this all goes.
I may have a chance at getting a bigger tank soon now. Just found a 125 on cl for 100 obo. Let's hope it's not gone yet and they get back to me quickly!

 

[chevyblue96]

Update:
I don't think the flame is doing so hot.
I moved rocks around, got him back in the main tank (yes, he was acclimated again) and now he's leaned against a rock and the glass breathing hard. He may swim around for just a min. or two while he lets the cleaner shrimp on him, but then he goes back and sort of stays perched again.

 

[btldreef]

That's not good. Did you fresh water dip him at all? Usually when they're breathing heavy, it means it's in the gills. Poor little guy.

 

[chevyblue96]

I didn't do the fresh water dip. I did a search on here since I'd never done one before and then I got scared to do it after reading how so many people lost their fish right after doing on.
However, on another note. The shrimp has been on him with force! I mean, litterally... On him and going to town. He's been picking inside the gill area, and the flame has started swimming around more since then.
I'm hoping maybe the shrimp is doing some good.

 

[btldreef]

It sounds like the shrimp is helping. Vitamins and good feedings.
Is the tang still harassing him?

 

[chevyblue96]

Tang hasn't seemed to bother him... He acted like he was going to go after him once but the Flame didn't really run off so the tang just turned around and has left him alone since.
I have been putting some garlic on their food since yesterday. I'm hoping he will eat in the morning.

 

[btldreef]

Vitamins will help more than garlic. I'm not a believer that garlic has any healing qualities to it, but I have seen it get finicky fish to eat, so I guess that in it's own is a healing quality.
At least the tang isn't stressing it more.
Hoping for the best for you!