Why am I being told to throw out the Bio-balls?

[civileng68]

My LFS is telling me to throw out the bio balls from my sump. I'm curious what purpose the sump has after that? Basically after you get rid of them you simply have two filters in the sump instead of more material for the water to pass through.
I'm sure there's a great reason but I'm just unsure of it. I've had high trates for a long time and that was the reasoning. Can someone explain?

 

[azfishgal]

I'm surprised your lfs didn't tell you what to put in it's place (well maybe not). Replace your bioballs with live rock and you will see your trates go down quickly.

Edit: Bio balls = trate factory

 

[whitey_028]

they hold the bacteria in the bio balls that create the nitrate pockets that are releasing in your tank... The best thing to do is replace the bioballs with live rock rubble so that you still "break" the water that passes over it but it doesnt create nitrate pockets... Or you can take the bioballs out and clean them but it will hold trates again in the future...

 

[civileng68]

Originally Posted by azfishgal
I'm surprised your lfs didn't tell you what to put in it's place (well maybe not). Replace your bioballs with live rock and you will see your trates go down quickly.

Edit: Bio balls = trate factory

Nope they never told me that. Just to take them out. I can understand the bio ball = trate thing but, to not put something else in didnt make much sense to me.
So just some LR? Sounds good to me!

 

[civileng68]

Originally Posted by whitey_028
they hold the bacteria in the bio balls that create the nitrate pockets that are releasing in your tank... The best thing to do is replace the bioballs with live rock rubble so that you still "break" the water that passes over it but it doesnt create nitrate pockets... Or you can take the bioballs out and clean them but it will hold trates again in the future...

do you put the LR at the top of the fuge (where the water first comes in) or down at the sponge at the bottom?

 

[whitey_028]

Place the rubble rock where the bio balls were...

 

[sportbikemike]

what about bio wheels?

 

[ice4ice]

Bio wheels are also nitrate factories. Skip them.

 

[3bavboys]

i don't mean to hijack the thread , but i do have a question - i have a 90g fowlr and a wet/dry - if i replace my bio balls with cured lr- how many #'s should i be buying ?

 

[3bavboys]

another question please - how quickly does the trate drop occur?

 

[civileng68]

Originally Posted by 3bavboys
another question please - how quickly does the trate drop occur?

Well obviously I dont know too much about it since I started the thread, but maybe it actually happens during water changes. My LFS told me that it's impossible to really REMOVE trates significantly with any natural measure. I HOPE someone tells me this isnt true because that just sort of makes me think the reef in our aquariums isn't a TRUE ecosystem.

 

[rbaldino]

Originally Posted by civileng68
Well obviously I dont know too much about it since I started the thread, but maybe it actually happens during water changes. My LFS told me that it's impossible to really REMOVE trates significantly with any natural measure. I HOPE someone tells me this isnt true because that just sort of makes me think the reef in our aquariums isn't a TRUE ecosystem.
There are organisms that convert nitrates, but they need aneorobic areas to thrive, meaning areas that aren't well oxygenated. Apparently you can create this by having a 1-2" bed of sand, which will allow for some areas with poor oxygenation, as long as you don't disturb the sand. This is different than a deep sand bed, which is 3-4" deep.

 

[ratrod]

Civileng68, I wouldnt toss out the bio balls just yet. I would definatly add some LR to your sump for sure. The trick with bio balls is that they have to be kept wet but definatly not sumbmerged. The water should trickle or rain over them. I see pics from time to time where they are in a sump under water and they serve no purpose. I've used them for years and had good luck, but I've always had LR in the tank and sump. The quickest way to lower you nitrates or anything toxic is with a water change. Dispite all the fancy equipment water changes are the best filtration we have

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by civileng68
Nope they never told me that. Just to take them out. I can understand the bio ball = trate thing but, to not put something else in didnt make much sense to me.
So just some LR? Sounds good to me!

IMO, this is wrong. Bioballs do not cause nitrate problems, people cause nitrate problems. The things that lead to them with bioballs (build up of gunk and detritus) will ALSO occur if you put a bunch of LR in there. "Just remove the bioballs" is not a solution to a nitrate problem, which has many causes. However, if they will sell you the rock, then by all means, they think it is a great idea.
To really address the problem, I would prefer to see a list of your tank inhabitants, filtration, skimmer, feeding (amount and frequency), water change (amount and frequency), brand of test kit, amount of LR, depth of sand bed, number and types of mechanical filters (something as simple as a sponge or filter pad...do you have one before your bioballs? Do you rinse it every few days?).
Bioballs and biowheels are NOT nitrate factories. They do rapidly and efficiently convert highly toxic ammonia to far less toxic nitrate. I would rather have a nitrate problem any day of the week. They are highly efficient at this role, which is what they are designed for. If they get filled with a lot of detritus and dirt, and are not properly cleaned, then it can be a problem. But in and of themselves they do not cause problems.
If I had an aggressive tank, I would never run it without bioballs. If I have a reef with lots of LR...then they may not be necessary, and the space better used as a refugium or similar.

 

[ophiura]

BTW, our reef tanks are NOT true ecosystems.
They are a recreation of an ecosystem, usually combining animals in ways that they never encounter in the wild, with levels of nutrients orders of magnitude higher than the wild, and probably a lot less biodiversity in general. They are not completely closed systems, but certainly not quite like the ocean in terms of exchange. They are artificial attempts to recreate an ecosystem, but they are not a true ecosystem, IMO.

 

[azfishgal]

We can get very scientific with our answers but the simple fact is bio balls have to be cleaned out regularly or you do get a higher nitrate level (seems to be a simple fact with most people). IMO I would rather have live rock that I don't have to keep taking out to clean. Not saying having all this info is not good, it's just we can over complicate things at times.
Edit: With all that said there is a lfs here that is owned by a husband and wife. He's very Bio-Balls advocate and she is not, only uses live rock with a sump/refuge. So he does his tanks his way, and she does her tanks her way. Both tanks look good. So you just have to go with what you want.

 

[ophiura]

My argument is against the idea that bioballs = nitrate factory. This is misleading, because it is not the bioballs themselves that are resulting in this problem, IMO. The issue is far more complex, and people need to know that there are more issues. If they do not clean the bioballs, and there is a lot of gunk accumulating on them - and you just switch to LR rubble, the same issue will be present, IMO. Then the nitrate problem is one of lack of care (or overfeeding, overstocking, improper setup) and not "the bioballs."

 

[dejaco]

Bio-balls in a sump, especially like in a wet/dry or trickle type are superb at what they were designed for. The design allowed for greatest surface area possible for bacteria like nitrosomonas and nitrobacter to form and populate.
In wet dry/dry or trickle systems with large amounts of both oxygen and nutrients they will perform so well that most find problems eliminating their byproduct; NITRATE. Nitrate is only broken down by bacteria forming in near zero to zero oxygen area's (deep sand beds or plenums and inside live rock).
So if your system has sand bed and live rock the need for bioballs is redundant and you would be making more nitrate for your system to breakdown. I have had friends and fellow hobbyists remove their bioballs and place chaeto in the chamber that had housed bioballs. Add proper lighting and now you have an algae chamber for nutrient export. It actually works quite well.

 

[azfishgal]

Originally Posted by ophiura
My argument is against the idea that bioballs = nitrate factory. This is misleading, because it is not the bioballs themselves that are resulting in this problem, IMO. The issue is far more complex, and people need to know that there are more issues. If they do not clean the bioballs, and there is a lot of gunk accumulating on them - and you just switch to LR rubble, the same issue will be present, IMO. Then the nitrate problem is one of lack of care (or overfeeding, overstocking, improper setup) and not "the bioballs."
I have a question then (and I am in no way trying to be sarcastic). You say we will have the same issue if we just replace our bio balls with live rock. So why are people switching and having good results? Are they taking out there live rock and washing it, like they have to do with the bio-balls? I was under the impression they do not.

 

[ophiura]

Often people with significant nitrate problems (bad enough that they will make a change) make several changes in their husbandry of the system, that is one thing to consider. Another is that they may in fact clean out the gunk in their sump, which may solve the problem short term. They may see short term benefits and not long...or they may, depending on what changes they make. It is difficult to say without specific studies. But there are also many people who run bioballs or similar (biowheels, etc) without having the "nitrate factory" issue.
I do agree that bioballs may not be needed in the tank. There are arguments that you are creating nitrate "away" from where it is converted to nitrogen.
But I am really very wary of the phrase "nitrate factory" because I believe it is misleading, and oversimplifies a multifaceted problem.
You can indeed remove the bioballs and replace them, and still have trouble.