S
steve620
Guest
What is the reason to have a sump ?
tangs rule
Active Member
They provide more room for equipment that you don't want to see in/on the DT (protein skimmers/reactors/heaters/filters)
They ADD to total water volume in the system, and a larger system is usually more stable
They provide (in some designs) an area for a refugium where we grow macro alage (seaweed) th reduce nitrates naturally.
They can provide safe areas for pod re-population where fish cannot eat them all the time.
They ADD to total water volume in the system, and a larger system is usually more stable
They provide (in some designs) an area for a refugium where we grow macro alage (seaweed) th reduce nitrates naturally.
They can provide safe areas for pod re-population where fish cannot eat them all the time.
S
steve620
Guest
What about bio balls should they be in the sump as well.
tangs rule
Active Member
Bio-balls have kinda fallen out of grace, as they can cause problems - like increases in nitrate when they get really dirty. Most people do not use them anymore
spanko
Active Member
In my opinion.
Bio media in the form of balls, beads, rings etc. are still a viable means of housing beneficial bacteria to convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. Here is where there effectiveness stops and is actually where it is supposed to stop in relation to their use. The perceived problems most have with them are a couple of things;
"They are a nitrate factory" Well yeah, that it what they are supposed to be.
"They accumulate detritus" Well yeah, they get dirty, and you are supposed to clean them.
I do not use them, but I understand their usefulness. There are other ways to accomplish the same end result.
Bio media in the form of balls, beads, rings etc. are still a viable means of housing beneficial bacteria to convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. Here is where there effectiveness stops and is actually where it is supposed to stop in relation to their use. The perceived problems most have with them are a couple of things;
"They are a nitrate factory" Well yeah, that it what they are supposed to be.
"They accumulate detritus" Well yeah, they get dirty, and you are supposed to clean them.
I do not use them, but I understand their usefulness. There are other ways to accomplish the same end result.
S
saxman
Guest
Yes, what Henry sez...
The problem is so you clean your dirty bioballs, now you've removed much of the bacteria you spent so much time growing during your cycle. Even if you rinse them in tankwater, you're still may lose enuff to start another diatom bloom.
The issue with bioballs and the like is that while they do a good job of processing NH3 to NO2 to NO3, that's where it stops, so now you remove the NO3 with WC's. However, if you use LR or LR rubble in your sump in place of bioballs, the anaerobic bacteria deep within the LR does handle at least some of the NO3 by converting it to N2 gas and water. You still have to change water, but why not make it a bit easier on the system in general?
Another REALLY good thing to do is to run live macro algae, which uses NH3 before it even gets into the nitrogen cycle.
HTH
The problem is so you clean your dirty bioballs, now you've removed much of the bacteria you spent so much time growing during your cycle. Even if you rinse them in tankwater, you're still may lose enuff to start another diatom bloom.
The issue with bioballs and the like is that while they do a good job of processing NH3 to NO2 to NO3, that's where it stops, so now you remove the NO3 with WC's. However, if you use LR or LR rubble in your sump in place of bioballs, the anaerobic bacteria deep within the LR does handle at least some of the NO3 by converting it to N2 gas and water. You still have to change water, but why not make it a bit easier on the system in general?
Another REALLY good thing to do is to run live macro algae, which uses NH3 before it even gets into the nitrogen cycle.
HTH
S
siptang
Guest
I had bio balls in my nano cube LONG LONG time ago and I guess I didn't clean it as much as I should have. Long story short, bad things happened to my corals in my tank and I wasn't a happy camper. Natural way is always the best way and I try to do it in natural way to mimic the mother nature.
S
steve620
Guest
If you don't use Bio Balls then what do you do then. This is all new to me.
S
saxman
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve620 http:///forum/thread/386616/why-use-a-sump#post_3397047
If you don't use Bio Balls then what do you do then. This is all new to me.
As previously posted:
However, if you use LR or LR rubble in your sump in place of bioballs, the anaerobic bacteria deep within the LR does handle at least some of the NO3 by converting it to N2 gas and water. You still have to change water, but why not make it a bit easier on the system in general?
Another REALLY good thing to do is to run live macro algae, which uses NH3 before it even gets into the nitrogen cycle.
Originally Posted by steve620 http:///forum/thread/386616/why-use-a-sump#post_3397047
If you don't use Bio Balls then what do you do then. This is all new to me.
As previously posted:
However, if you use LR or LR rubble in your sump in place of bioballs, the anaerobic bacteria deep within the LR does handle at least some of the NO3 by converting it to N2 gas and water. You still have to change water, but why not make it a bit easier on the system in general?
Another REALLY good thing to do is to run live macro algae, which uses NH3 before it even gets into the nitrogen cycle.
geoj
Active Member
I would like some one to explain, how bio-balls are different then not using bio-balls. Is it one of those out of sight out of mind things or what....
The reason I point this out is there is no change in the amount of waste that goes into the tank when using bio-balls and if the waste does not accumulate on the bio-balls it is somewhere else in the tank so what gives?
The reason I point this out is there is no change in the amount of waste that goes into the tank when using bio-balls and if the waste does not accumulate on the bio-balls it is somewhere else in the tank so what gives?
kiefers
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJ http:///forum/thread/386616/why-use-a-sump#post_3397168
I would like some one to explain, how bio-balls are different then not using bio-balls. Is it one of those out of sight out of mind things or what....
The reason I point this out is there is no change in the amount of waste that goes into the tank when using bio-balls and if the waste does not accumulate on the bio-balls it is somewhere else in the tank so what gives?
I see your point however,... IMO all living elements produce a waist. The elements that build up on BB's do produce waist however there is bacteria on these that take care of as much as they can, the rest gets flushed into the system. Keep in mind tho, when "cleaning the BB's, never "clean" them. Swish them, only a handful at a time, in the water your changing out. Bioballs in theory are good sourse to grow bacteria on but if not "swished" they build up waist, like every living thing. sorry if this makes no sense, trying very hard and it's late.
Originally Posted by GeoJ http:///forum/thread/386616/why-use-a-sump#post_3397168
I would like some one to explain, how bio-balls are different then not using bio-balls. Is it one of those out of sight out of mind things or what....
The reason I point this out is there is no change in the amount of waste that goes into the tank when using bio-balls and if the waste does not accumulate on the bio-balls it is somewhere else in the tank so what gives?
I see your point however,... IMO all living elements produce a waist. The elements that build up on BB's do produce waist however there is bacteria on these that take care of as much as they can, the rest gets flushed into the system. Keep in mind tho, when "cleaning the BB's, never "clean" them. Swish them, only a handful at a time, in the water your changing out. Bioballs in theory are good sourse to grow bacteria on but if not "swished" they build up waist, like every living thing. sorry if this makes no sense, trying very hard and it's late.
spanko
Active Member
Okay gonna try to be simple here, not a hard thing as I am a simple minded person. The problem with the biomedia is that they are perfect traps for detritus due to their physical characteristics. Because of this the detritus accumulation accelerates the bio filtering capability of the system around the media. As this capability accelerates, read more nitrifying bacteria here, the production of nitrates is increased over time or as the bacteria colony grows to deal with the increase in available ammonia and nitrites. So the real problem with them becomming a "nitrate factory" is in the amount of detritus that accumulates.
So..............there in lies the need to restructure the process by either cleaning off the detritus but not the bacteria, or to aggressively prefilter the water being introduced to the media so that the detritus is removed from the system prior to being broken down into ammonia.
I will say again that biomedia is very effective in doing what it was designed to do and that is house nitrifying bacteria in an aerobic environment for the breakdwon of ammonia and nitrites. However their is the added maintenance that is needed to keep the detritus from accumulating on them, causing more protein breakdown, the increase in nitrifying bacteria to deal with it, and the increase in production of nitrates.
They do have an added benefit that some don't realize in that they are the perfect vehicle to increase oxygenation of the water.
Hope that helps a bit.
So..............there in lies the need to restructure the process by either cleaning off the detritus but not the bacteria, or to aggressively prefilter the water being introduced to the media so that the detritus is removed from the system prior to being broken down into ammonia.
I will say again that biomedia is very effective in doing what it was designed to do and that is house nitrifying bacteria in an aerobic environment for the breakdwon of ammonia and nitrites. However their is the added maintenance that is needed to keep the detritus from accumulating on them, causing more protein breakdown, the increase in nitrifying bacteria to deal with it, and the increase in production of nitrates.
They do have an added benefit that some don't realize in that they are the perfect vehicle to increase oxygenation of the water.
Hope that helps a bit.
tangs rule
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiefers http:///forum/thread/386616/why-use-a-sump#post_3397164
Dumb question here............... how do you run live micro algae in the system? If one V. doses, wouldn't that kill off the micro algae? Enquiring minds want to know.
I think you mean macro alage -
I run MACRO (seaweed) all the time - it continually grows and never stops. I prune it back and keep the stuff I removed for the tangs, they eat it up just like nori. I started with 1 handful when I got the 475 tank running, and it doubles in size every month! What started as a handful NOW is a mat, 4-6" deep and the dimensions of the dedicated fuge - 24 x 12, and I prune enough to fill a quart cup weekly.
It is my understanding that you can run VD with your refugium running - and it won't harm your macro - but eventually if the VD removes alot of nitrates, your macro growth may slow. I don't run VD, but a very healthy fuge with the macro and some mangroves that lights ON about 20 hrs/day
Originally Posted by Kiefers http:///forum/thread/386616/why-use-a-sump#post_3397164
Dumb question here............... how do you run live micro algae in the system? If one V. doses, wouldn't that kill off the micro algae? Enquiring minds want to know.
I think you mean macro alage -
I run MACRO (seaweed) all the time - it continually grows and never stops. I prune it back and keep the stuff I removed for the tangs, they eat it up just like nori. I started with 1 handful when I got the 475 tank running, and it doubles in size every month! What started as a handful NOW is a mat, 4-6" deep and the dimensions of the dedicated fuge - 24 x 12, and I prune enough to fill a quart cup weekly.
It is my understanding that you can run VD with your refugium running - and it won't harm your macro - but eventually if the VD removes alot of nitrates, your macro growth may slow. I don't run VD, but a very healthy fuge with the macro and some mangroves that lights ON about 20 hrs/day
kiefers
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by tangs rule http:///forum/thread/386616/why-use-a-sump#post_3397195
I think you mean macro alage -
I run MACRO (seaweed) all the time - it continually grows and never stops. I prune it back and keep the stuff I removed for the tangs, they eat it up just like nori. I started with 1 handful when I got the 475 tank running, and it doubles in size every month! What started as a handful NOW is a mat, 4-6" deep and the dimensions of the dedicated fuge - 24 x 12, and I prune enough to fill a quart cup weekly.
It is my understanding that you can run VD with your refugium running - and it won't harm your macro - but eventually if the VD removes alot of nitrates, your macro growth may slow. I don't run VD, but a very healthy fuge with the macro and some mangroves that lights ON about 20 hrs/day
sorry about the spelling...... Vodka is cheaper than leaving lights on for 20 hours. lol....
Originally Posted by tangs rule http:///forum/thread/386616/why-use-a-sump#post_3397195
I think you mean macro alage -
I run MACRO (seaweed) all the time - it continually grows and never stops. I prune it back and keep the stuff I removed for the tangs, they eat it up just like nori. I started with 1 handful when I got the 475 tank running, and it doubles in size every month! What started as a handful NOW is a mat, 4-6" deep and the dimensions of the dedicated fuge - 24 x 12, and I prune enough to fill a quart cup weekly.
It is my understanding that you can run VD with your refugium running - and it won't harm your macro - but eventually if the VD removes alot of nitrates, your macro growth may slow. I don't run VD, but a very healthy fuge with the macro and some mangroves that lights ON about 20 hrs/day
sorry about the spelling...... Vodka is cheaper than leaving lights on for 20 hours. lol....
S
saxman
Guest
We run macro in pretty much every tank we own (13 of them), and we never leave the lights on like that. The folks who do are buying into the whole "it will "go sexual" on you thing, and this is VERY simple to prevent, and if by some chance the stuff wants to go south, it will warn you first, and to be honest, it's usually the fast-growers that will do this, and generally only if they go unpruned for awhile.
The other thing some peeps who run the stuff in their fuges do is run the fuge lighting on a reverse cycle than the DT lighting. this helps minimize nightly drops in pH when the tank goes into "normal respiration". I used to do this, but stopped because my pH never shifted very much.
The other thing some peeps who run the stuff in their fuges do is run the fuge lighting on a reverse cycle than the DT lighting. this helps minimize nightly drops in pH when the tank goes into "normal respiration". I used to do this, but stopped because my pH never shifted very much.
kiefers
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by saxman http:///forum/thread/386616/why-use-a-sump#post_3397229
We run macro in pretty much every tank we own (13 of them), and we never leave the lights on like that. The folks who do are buying into the whole "it will "go sexual" on you thing, and this is VERY simple to prevent, and if by some chance the stuff wants to go south, it will warn you first, and to be honest, it's usually the fast-growers that will do this, and generally only if they go unpruned for awhile.
The other thing some peeps who run the stuff in their fuges do is run the fuge lighting on a reverse cycle than the DT lighting. this helps minimize nightly drops in pH when the tank goes into "normal respiration". I used to do this, but stopped because my pH never shifted very much.
that sounds better...... and uhm..... did you say 13?? Oh man......
Originally Posted by saxman http:///forum/thread/386616/why-use-a-sump#post_3397229
We run macro in pretty much every tank we own (13 of them), and we never leave the lights on like that. The folks who do are buying into the whole "it will "go sexual" on you thing, and this is VERY simple to prevent, and if by some chance the stuff wants to go south, it will warn you first, and to be honest, it's usually the fast-growers that will do this, and generally only if they go unpruned for awhile.
The other thing some peeps who run the stuff in their fuges do is run the fuge lighting on a reverse cycle than the DT lighting. this helps minimize nightly drops in pH when the tank goes into "normal respiration". I used to do this, but stopped because my pH never shifted very much.
that sounds better...... and uhm..... did you say 13?? Oh man......