woopsies-- spoke too soon

[beaslbob]

Just to show that I am honest a reporting actual experiences, my nitrAtes tested this week at 160+PPM. Since the tested at 20PPM last week this was a suprise. I do not suspect the test kit as as my macro algae tank still tested a 0.0 PPM.
I also got a new ammonia kit. Both tanks tested light green for this first time in months. I do suspect that was the test and will retest tonight. the ammonia dot on the side of the tank remained at 0.
the ammonia is consistant with a bad batch of macro algae i received and placed in the macro tank 2 weeks ago. The macro immediately died and produced cloudy water. Adding circulation help clear up the macro tank. There is also a slight cloudiness in the 55g display which has started to clear up overnight.
In the display I did spot feed a shrimp to my starfish (2), the BCS and crabs. I have added star polyphs (sp?) two weeks ago, and either a rasta or finger leather last week. Both seem healthy and are acting normally. but that increased bioload may be a factor in the ammonia and nitrates.
For corrective action, I have started swapping 4g between the 55g display and the 20g macro. Will let you kow how this progresses. Now that I have committed to reporting everything, hope the whole tank does not crash.

 

[reefnut]

I'm glad to see you decide to do some water changes!!!! BTW, on Friday you said you didn't have any inverts in your tank? Why now have you had corals for 2- weeks, crabs and stars?

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by ReefNut
I'm glad to see you decide to do some water changes!!!! BTW, on Friday you said you didn't have any inverts in your tank? Why now have you had corals for 2- weeks, crabs and stars?
Yea I changed water from one extablished tank to another. more like a manual fuge.
Gee guess I lied. I limite my posts to things i have experience with. Two weeks with new inverts was not worth mentioning.

 

[reefnut]

Ya, I guess you did.
Not worth mentioning?
Quote: My tank has no inverts. What will happen if i add them?
Your corals are dieing in 160+ppm nitrates. But then again, so are your fish.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by ReefNut
Ya, I guess you did.
Not worth mentioning?
Quote: My tank has no inverts. What will happen if i add them?
Your corals are dieing in 160+ppm nitrates. But then again, so are your fish.
thanks for your input. that is the reason I waited until nitrAtes dropped before adding the corals.
The fish have been dieing for a month now. They also have been in the tank with 40-160ppm nitrAtes for over 4 months.
But then I intend to get the nitrAtes down.

 

[reefnut]

But then I intend to get the nitrAtes down.
For the sake of your critters I hope you do. Those water changes are a good start .

 

[nm reef]

My ...my...my!! If I remember correctly you were warned that your nitrates would likely soon return within a few weeks when you were sooooooooo excited about the sudden reduction.
Seems the prediction was correct and your hopes of reduced nitrates via un-conventional methods were premature.
the ammonia is consistant with a bad batch of macro algae i received and placed in the macro tank 2 weeks ago. The macro immediately died and produced cloudy water. Adding circulation help clear up the macro tank. There is also a slight cloudiness in the 55g display which has started to clear up overnight.
The ammonia levels could be the result of your filtration not being able to handle the bio-load also...just a thought. The reading could also be false depending on the type and age of test kit being used. The cloudy water may be from the macros going sexual...which also could contribute to the increase in ammonia. I'd suggest some carbon/floss to remove the spores from the water.
For corrective action, I have started swapping 4g between the 55g display and the 20g macro. Will let you kow how this progresses.
Your corrective action sounds more like robbing Peter to pay Paul...problems from one system go into the other and neither systems problems are being addressed. I would suggest some more conventional approachs to establishing/maintaining a marine system.
By way of explanation let me offer this....you recently posted pics of your system as it looks using the methods you have been suggesting. Now we both know how that pic looked and we both know you are currently having problems. Well I want you to look at this pic below...it is of a 55 display(same as yours) the system contains about 50 types of coral...5 different fish...numerous crabs/snails...a pair of cleaner shrimp....countless worms & bugs & pods and who knows what else. Filtration is via 90 lbs of quality LR...and well over 200 lbs of LS from assorted sources. The refugium is triple staged low flow gravity returned with lots of macro algaes.The skimmer is a EuroReef CS6-2 that runs 24/7....the system is supplimented for calcium/alkalinity daily. All water is RO/DI and water changes are performed monthly(approximately 5%-10%).I could continue to list my conventional reefkeeping methods but I think you get the point!
Now don't get me wrong...I'm not offering my system as a model for perfection...heck I see lots of systems way better than mine. All I'm saying is you've attempted to promote what many consider un-conventional methods to folks that don't know better and you now have problems related to those methods. This is what the use of conventional methods can produce if the time and care is taken to follow methods that have with stood the test of time!Compare the humble results below via conventional methods to the un-conventional results you are experiencing...

 

[wamp]

In the display I did spot feed a shrimp to my starfish (2), the BCS and crabs. I have added star polyphs (sp?) two weeks ago, and either a rasta or finger leather last week. Both seem healthy and are acting normally. but that increased bioload may be a factor in the ammonia and nitrates.

If that little load increased ammonia, You have more problems than what you realize..

 

[nm reef]

Yup...I agree!
With all due respect thats why I've cautioned against your methods....it can work I suppose.
There are lots of styles to pick from as far as establishing/maintaining a reef. To me at least the method you've been promoting can easily contribute to the condition of your system. Hopefully you'll get everything back in line and you'll be able to save everything.
I just don't believe most new hobbiest can maintain a system with only macros for filtration/no LR/no DSB/using only untreated tap water/no maintenance of calcium/alkalinity/PH...no skimmer...no regular water changes...
I mean I for one believe very strongly that there are numerous other options that I believe can make the entire process much easier...not to mention more stable!

NMREEF
“...all we are saying...is give Peace a chance!”
nmreef@cox.net

 

[broomer5]

Do yourself a favor bob.
Run out and buy 10 gallons of RO water from the grocery store.
Mix up 10 gallons of new saltwater, aerate it overnight, and do a 10 gallon water change on the 55.
Your tank, fish, corals and inverts will appreciate it.
I hope your tank gets better - for real.

 

[nm reef]

kipass does make a good point...maybe I've been overly critical. I also agree that a few changes in your methods may result in a more enjoyable reef...so...sorry if I've been overly critical.We all want members to be successful establishing and maintaining their systems.
Heck...the main reason I come here is to help me keep my system stable and enjoyable.
So...best of luck...

 

[wamp]

I'll be the first to admit, diffrent views are what makes this hobby great. But, when you stick with a method that has proven not to work, there is a problem..
Macros do absolutley nothing in a tank for ammonia and nitrites. They will use up nitrates but if you have to add algea to get rid of algea where does the cycle stop?
I have no problems with your line of thought or your personal views bob.. I hope I don't come off too hard on ya, (not that your too worried about it I am sure) but, I just try and try to understand your therioes and can't.. Maybe I am just not reading all your posts enough..
I, personally, have found the best way to keep a healthy tank is to have a good maintance routine. Water changes and cleaning the tank, not overloading, using RO water are just a few in my arsnal..
A healthy tank is a balanaced tank. That we do agree on. A balanced tank has a bio-load equal to the biological filtration.
Good luck with the Nitrates... My suggestion, water changes will help!

 

[cincyreefer]

Yeah thanks for the input bob. I won't be critical because you didn't have to post that you were wrong and I can respect that. Just goes to show that the boards can be a very good way to learn.

 

[col]

The fish have been dieing for a month now. They also have been in the tank with 40-160ppm nitrAtes for over 4 months.
Try macro algae to reduce nitrates

 

[reefnut]

Well we shall see but Bob don't continue to give your unconventional advice given the state your tank is in. We been through ways that you could help your tank, I suggest you act on some of them.

 

[dreeves]

I think it is cool bob that you are continuing on with your ways...and I encourage you to continue to do so...I dont encourage you to give the advice you have, but that has already been discussed...
What many of these people apparantly fail to realize is that our hobby was and for most parts still is...in an infancy stage...the tried and proven methods didn't happen overnight...they were the results of trial and error over and over again by people like you.
You keep experimenting and take the posts from these people at face value. And please do keep updating on your progress.

 

[madd catt]

In this instance instead of plants too reduce nitrates,polution or whatever it may be, would not an alge scrubber be better to use.

 

[wamp]

What many of these people apparantly fail to realize is that our hobby was and for most parts still is...in an infancy stage
True, but Chemistry has been around for a lot longer than you and I. You can not change laws of nature no matter how hard you try.
I am all for trying new stuff, but when it fails, you need to move on and try something else. To continue to dish out info that has failed for you is just not right.
Ammonia present in a tank is ammonia.. No other way to cut except with bacteria or a HUGE water change. With only algea, as he has strongly suggested people use for their filtration, there is no place for the bacteria to colinate..
I, nor anyone for that matter, know everything about this hobby. But I also do not try and give advice that has not either worked for me or someone I know..
Algea, well it serves a purpose for sure! But as a main part of the filtration it is not. Just my opinion based on experiences...

 

[reefnut]

By all means, keep experimenting and torturing your critters...
But do not promote a KNOWN failing system.
The way I see it is this. A 4- month battle with 160ppm nitrates and still a drive to convince new hobbyists that his way works and that they do not need skimmers, clean water, LR, LS, etc.
How anyone can respect that is beyond me.

 

[cb]

I second that motion!
Great tank NM...