yes or no on sand
- Thread starter blueabyss
- Start date
justinx
Active Member
This tank is bare bottomed . . . no substrate at all.
http://www.moyesreef.com/home.html
http://www.moyesreef.com/home.html
hairtrigger
Active Member
No one method is perfect. And none is necissarily right.
But my vote is.... DSB!
I had been dealing with nasty cyano that made me want to get rid of my DSB. But I knew better. After fixing that, I am beefing up my DSB with even more critters so it functions more properly. I thought the cyano was caused by too much detritus in the DSB, since that's where it only was.
That's where DSBs come into play. You have the minimal 4 inches of live sand, preferably aragonite. Maybe seeded with dead aragonite. The denitrification process only starts at 4 inches.
The sand is not "live" unless it has critters. Such as worms, pods, snails, bugs, etc. The critters eat the detritus and sift the sand. This helps the denitrification process.
This, over time, helps create a more natural environment. Eg, trying to make a more accurate "Ocean, Reef."
Without a DSB, with a bare, or minimally covered bottom you get:
None of the above listed effects.
Yes, you have live rock.
But, with a DSB you have the best of both worlds. Coupled with good water quality and lighting, you should do well.
And throw a refugium on... the possibilities are almost endless.
That's just my opinion though.
But my vote is.... DSB!
I had been dealing with nasty cyano that made me want to get rid of my DSB. But I knew better. After fixing that, I am beefing up my DSB with even more critters so it functions more properly. I thought the cyano was caused by too much detritus in the DSB, since that's where it only was.
That's where DSBs come into play. You have the minimal 4 inches of live sand, preferably aragonite. Maybe seeded with dead aragonite. The denitrification process only starts at 4 inches.
The sand is not "live" unless it has critters. Such as worms, pods, snails, bugs, etc. The critters eat the detritus and sift the sand. This helps the denitrification process.
This, over time, helps create a more natural environment. Eg, trying to make a more accurate "Ocean, Reef."
Without a DSB, with a bare, or minimally covered bottom you get:
None of the above listed effects.
Yes, you have live rock.
But, with a DSB you have the best of both worlds. Coupled with good water quality and lighting, you should do well.
And throw a refugium on... the possibilities are almost endless.
That's just my opinion though.
hairtrigger
Active Member
PS, bare bottom tanks require more frequent, and larger water changes. Eg, more maintenance.
Just my opinion though.
Just my opinion though.
bonermeister
Member
DSB is the way to go. Bare-bottom blows. Moyes Reef is truly an exception because of its size and its superb care. But even his technically has a DSB because he has a 30 gal. refugium with a DSB so the above statement is technically incorrect.
hairtrigger
Active Member
No prob blueabyss, my pleasure. I just have realized how very important to long-term reef keeping that DSBs are.
BangGuy (the mod) can really answer your DSB questions. He is pretty much the resident expert.
Good luck.
BangGuy (the mod) can really answer your DSB questions. He is pretty much the resident expert.
Good luck.
hairtrigger
Active Member
PS, sure, you can overload your tank with plenty of equipment to HELP reduce trates. But, the natural system parallels an actual ocean more than anything. And given that a fuge has a DSB, it is a natural method. Plus, you're going to spend a lot of money on those pieces of equipment. Some of which don't work as effectively as you'd probably like. A lot of it is just good maintenance habits.
krux
Member
the common assumption, at least amongst regulars on this board, is that a fuge must include a dsb, which is not always the case. most macro algaes can be grown attatched to rock, or free floating in the water, and the use of mud based refugiums also produces the same denitrification benefits of an aragonite based sand bed.
i urge folks to get out into the world and read some recent journal and magazine publications. there are actually several studies showing the downfalls of dsb setups, especially when they are incorrectly constructed. there are a couple articles dealing with it in this month's issue of fama alone. the long standing idea that you could throw a lot of sand in the bottom and add a cup of sand from another tank and all your filtration issues will be solved is rapidly becoming debunked. it is impossible to recreate the biological processes, chemistry, and physics involved in an oceanic benthic environment in an aquarium, and what most people feel is a close approximation is actually a far cry from the "natural" principles that they think they are supporting. be sure to check out past issues of fama in their section called "sand mail" as well as the q & a this month for saltwater, dealing with the inevitabilities of a dsb and hair algae production.
but that is a whole different topic and debate.
the point being, a fairly closed community will quickly come to revolve around the most common or simple solution to a problem before them, especially if a few folks can demonstrate "bullet proof" examples of sucess with said procedure. before you decide to hook onto the sled yourself, a little outside investigation is always a good idea... if for no other reason than to support the ideas you are recommended here by independent or outside sources.
i urge folks to get out into the world and read some recent journal and magazine publications. there are actually several studies showing the downfalls of dsb setups, especially when they are incorrectly constructed. there are a couple articles dealing with it in this month's issue of fama alone. the long standing idea that you could throw a lot of sand in the bottom and add a cup of sand from another tank and all your filtration issues will be solved is rapidly becoming debunked. it is impossible to recreate the biological processes, chemistry, and physics involved in an oceanic benthic environment in an aquarium, and what most people feel is a close approximation is actually a far cry from the "natural" principles that they think they are supporting. be sure to check out past issues of fama in their section called "sand mail" as well as the q & a this month for saltwater, dealing with the inevitabilities of a dsb and hair algae production.
but that is a whole different topic and debate.
the point being, a fairly closed community will quickly come to revolve around the most common or simple solution to a problem before them, especially if a few folks can demonstrate "bullet proof" examples of sucess with said procedure. before you decide to hook onto the sled yourself, a little outside investigation is always a good idea... if for no other reason than to support the ideas you are recommended here by independent or outside sources.
hairtrigger
Active Member
Krux makes a good point: You should definitely do some significant research into this subject. Because, whatever you decide, the information will help you in the long-run. You don't want to create a system, regardless of what it is, and then have to re-do it because you're not satisfied.
the claw
Active Member
I'm sorry I wasn't more specific Blue. I think Hair nailed it though. I'm in favor of the DSB because I like natural environments. I want my tanks to be just as perfect as the ocean. (something to strive for huh?). The DSB creates a whole ecosystem inside your tank that those without it miss out on. Lots of bugs=more food for the harder to keep fish etc. Plus, when you add conchs and other critters it adds entertainment valley as well. Fewer water changes equal more veiwing time. Throw in a couple of jawfish and you have your own entertainment committee. IMO, the more natural of a set-up you have, the less likely doomsday will come. (less likely for a crash). BUT.... to each his own. I'm not going to tell Moyes reef that his set-up isn't as good as mine.
hairtrigger
Active Member
HA! That's hillarious Krux.
wrassecal
Active Member
Like Krux, I've been reading some dsb stuff lately. Now that it's been popular for a while there are some that have experienced dsb crashes, and the debates of bare bottom, shallow sand and dsb in main tanks are heatin up! DSB with clean up critter crew, for denitrification is the most popular now. Lately, I've seen some interesting arguments by experienced aquarists for shallow or bare bottom. No one seems to be getting interested in cc again though