Fish are scratching, in a tank treated with copper!

[igokui]

Hey guys,
I am in the process of upgrading my 75g to a new reef ready 150g. I have had a problem with ich in the past and have decided to treat the entire 75g tank with copper. Everyone has been doing great, but last night I noticed my lunare wrasse, blue hippo tang, and emperor angel all squirming and scratching again. I don't understand how they could have inch again if they have been in a copper treated tank for a month? Any thoughts? I also just did a massive 30% water change last night. Using treated tap water. Not RO/Di. But I have an ro/Di system on the way!
The 150 will not be ready until July, so right now the 75 with copper is all I have. How can everyone be fine for a month, then all of a sudden start scratching?

 

[beth]

What copper did you use, and did you test for copper levels daily? Have you seen ich on the fish?

 

[igokui]

Thank you for the quick response. The copper I use is called "copper power" Its blue, and i have had a good experience with it in the past. I have posted a picture below.

Your next question actually is a little odd. I am almost convinced that no matter HOW much copper I put in, when I do a test, its always a very low amount. It almost doesn't make sense. A few months ago, i accidentally did too much, so I immediately did a test, and the test was the exact same color as it was before the dose.. I waited 24 hours and tested again and the same thing..

I also posted a pic of the test itself with the copper card next to it.. As you can see, its a very light shade of gold. As i said, even If i add more, it never seems to get a darker shade.. Any thoughts?

Sorry working on uploading pics.. seem to be having problems with Safari.. will post soon

 

[igokui]

 

[igokui]

And no, no spots at all, but a little bit of fin fray on the very tips.

 

[igokui]

Here is what I'm talking about. Sorry, they swim fast, i couldn't get a really clear shot.. See the Emperor, his lower fin is frayed..

And I didn't mean your question was ODD, i meant the answer I had was odd. sorry

 

[trigger40]

what is your water looking like. the same thing happens to my emporator when i put to much chemicals in the water. remember angel fish are really sensitive to copper so that can be causing the fins to look the way they do. some times the best medicine is no medicine. so i would buy a new copper test kit and test the copper agen. and post what it is.

 

[beth]

Copper products must be compatible with the test kits used. I'm not familiar with the copper you are using however. I can say that using copper in a display tank is a very bad idea. Copper should only be used in quarantine tanks. I would suggest you stop using any copper at this point. Do small daily water changes to dilute the copper from your system and wait and see if your fish get ich.

What are your water readings at this point, nitrite, nitrate, ammonia?

I'm assuming that tank is a Fish Only tank? If so, and if ich reappears, and you must use your display tank to treat, than proceed with hpyosalinity treatment.

https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/a/hyposalinity

 

[igokui]

Thank you Beth, I was not aware that there were different copper tests.. I will look into that. I had my display tank running for months with no issue, then I bought a piece of live rock from *****.. and the next thing I know, half my fish had ich. This started in March. I started a 30 gallon quarantine, and moved the sick fish there, and they did recover.

I then brought down the salinity of my tank. literally all the way to 1.013 for 4 weeks. Yes it is a fish only, but I had 1 starfish who did survive the hyopsalinity treat,meant.. anyway after 30 days I thought everything was all set. I was convinced that i beat ich. S

o I started bringing the fish back into the display tank one at a time, one a week. During the second week, everyone had icy again. at that point, I moved all the live rock into a huge rubbermaid tank. and decided to just treat the current "display tank." Another reason for my decision, is that I have a 150 reef ready tank on order, and will be set up in the next few weeks. After the fish are successfully moved into this tank. I will be breaking down the 75. So I was not worried about adding copper to the display tank. That is also why there are only fake coral sculptures in the tank, all the rock is in another tank, which I am going to leave for 60 days this time. All the sand has been taken out as well. as I ready icy can hide in the sand and rocks.

I do have a big protein skimmer and a UV sterilizer.

The levels are all good. PH = 8.2, Ammonia - 0, Nitrite -0. Nitrate 0, Phosphate - .25, copper LOOKS like .25

I did a big water change last night, and today the fish seem to be doing a little better.. but who knows.

 

[beth]

Did you use a refractometer for the hyposalinity? The procedure must be done exactly and 1.013 is not the target. I would keep your fish in the tank then and proceed with a true hypo treatment using a refract. You already have ammonia, so I can't recommend more copper. Leave the fish in hypo until your new tank is ready. Find a temp home for the inverts (a Rubbermaid with a pump and adequate heat will do). Refractometers are the best way to measure salinity and what is needed for hypo. Its the best choice for a future reef as well.

Keep in mind that ammonia become more toxic with higher pH, so do not raise your pH any higher then 8.0 while you have ammonia in the tank.

 

[silverado61]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/397754/fish-are-scratching-in-a-tank-treated-with-copper#post_3546390
You already have ammonia, so I can't recommend more copper.

Keep in mind that ammonia become more toxic with higher pH, so do not raise your pH any higher then 8.0 while you have ammonia in the tank.
If I read his post right (and I think I did) his ammonia is zero. His phosphates are .25

Just an observation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Igokui http:///t/397754/fish-are-scratching-in-a-tank-treated-with-copper#post_3546384

The levels are all good. PH = 8.2, Ammonia - 0, Nitrite -0. Nitrate 0, Phosphate - .25, copper LOOKS like .25

 

[beth]

Yep, misread. Even so, I'd still recommend the hypo....copper already not working and continuing will expose the fish longer to the toxin.

 

[igokui]

Hey guys,

I really appreciate everyone's help here! Since I did the water change last night I checked all my levels..

I have posted a picture to show the test that i just took.

The PH looks like 8 and the ammonia looks like 0.25.. the Phos however, looks MUCH higher that I thought.. any thoughts? Will this make the fish scratch?


Yes I do have a refractometer. Right now, my salt is back up to 1.021 You mentioned 1.013 was not the target with hypo salinity.. Was I too high? or too low? Should it be 1.010? or 1.018? I am not sure..

 

[beth]

The phosphate is not really of concern. You want to watch ammonia, nitrites. The procedure for hypo is outlined in the link I posted above. It needs to read 1.009 specific gravity and 14ppt salinity if your refract reads salinity. This must be maintained throughout the process.

 

[Thomasp]

I just lost 6 fish to ich. I ended up adding a 36w UV to my 60 gal. tank running it at 250gph. Killed the ich but also kills beneficial bacteria so test daily and be ready to add a bacteria booster. When ammonia shows up in the tank pull out the UV. The remaining fish are healthy and the water quality back to normal after a hard week.

 

[geridoc]

I just lost 6 fish to ich. I ended up adding a 36w UV to my 60 gal. tank running it at 250gph. Killed the ich but also kills beneficial bacteria so test daily and be ready to add a bacteria booster. When ammonia shows up in the tank pull out the UV. The remaining fish are healthy and the water quality back to normal after a hard week.

UV only kills what is suspended in the water. The bacteria that are processing nitrogen waste are only on solid surfaces (glass, rocks, sand, etc.), so UV treatment doesn't affect them. Even so, you might find ich returning later since it is very difficult to do anything other than lower the number of infectious organisms in the water, but rarely to zero.

 

[geridoc]

I just tried to find Copper Power on the internet, and there isn't much out there. Apparently it is a mixture of metallic sulfates, including copper sulfate. So I'm not sure if a standard copper test kit even works for this product. I used to use cupramine and a matching test kit, but now use hypo for ich.

 

[Thomasp]

UV only kills what is suspended in the water. The bacteria that are processing nitrogen waste are only on solid surfaces (glass, rocks, sand, etc.), so UV treatment doesn't affect them. Even so, you might find ich returning later since it is very difficult to do anything other than lower the number of infectious organisms in the water, but rarely to zero.

I didn't say nitrites increased so I suspect you may be correct about nitrogen waste processing however some nitrogen processing bacteria has to get pumped about your system. Ammonia did increase to at least 5ppm that's why I cautioned it needed to be monitored. If you can run the UV long enough and strong enough to get through a full cycle of ich you're going to kill it. After two weeks of running a 36W UV in a 60 gallon tank with a 20 gallon tank with a 9W UV, my tank was out of balance. It took me a week, bacteria booster and a 25 gallon water change to get the tank cycling properly again. Now almost three weeks later my yellow tang who had ich has survived and is looking very robust and healthy. I can only see two ways of getting rid of ich in a reef tank, isolate the fish in a tank with no rock and no sand and wait out the ich cycle for at least 30 days OR kill ich as it cycles using UV in your main tank and sump. Dips and copper can only kill or cure symptoms on fish DEPENDING on where ich is in it's cycle. Dipping and copper treatments require you to net fish out of your tank (if you can) stressing out probably killing some of the fish you are attempting to treat. I don't have an isolation tank and I don't want to deal with a second system and all it requires for temporary use.
Going foreword I'll pay the fish store to isolate the fish I buy for two weeks. It's a shame that most places we buy fish are only interested in turning over fish as fast as they get them with little or no concern about infections or survival. The only sure fact I know about saltwater aquarium keeping is that it's like Moms secret meatball recipe every Mom has one and every Mom claims it's the one and only way to make good meatballs.