$200 Billion for another man on the Moon, and one on Mars?

[kistheeze]

What if during the exploration of mars or the moon we unearth signs of life? Or even the fossils of previous beings? What if we uncover the missing link to the puzzle of religion?
Money will be spent regardless of weather we go there or not. It's not like they wouldn't use it for something anyway.
I'm all for the spirit of "what if" and although fiscally conservative, I feel like space exploration is worth the cost.

 

[marvida]

With all due respect I must disagree with Wamp. There has never been anything invented or developed without a reason. Goals & objectives drive technology. As far as "some" technology comming out of the space program, I would invite you to read this bit of propoganda from NASA. Bottom line is everyone will come into contact today with a lot of technology that has been developed for or greatly enhanced by the space program. From smoke detectors to barcode scanners and the chip which hopefully will never have to activate the airbags in your car, you are benefiting greatly from the space program.
www.nasa.gov/pdf/54862main_benefits.pdf
Hopefully that link will work!
GREAT DISCUSSION!

 

[fishman830]

but just hink of all teh untapped recources on mars..

 

[tony detroit]

Originally posted by swilbs83
Tony sorry to burst your bubble but a national health care program would send the US not only into bankruptcy, but would reduce the quality of our health system enormously
You sound educated and you bring up some very valid points, but I truly disagree with the statement above. We already pay for national health care, the money is just mis-managed. How can Scotland afford NHC but we cannot with our economy and the amount of taxes we pay.
When a guy goes into a hospital and does not pay his emergency bill, that comes out of the gross that the hospital has to work with. The gross payed by people like you and me that have insurance. So in a sense the companies we work for are paying our insurance bills and our bills are jacked high enough to make up for the people that do not pay their bills when they go to the emergency room so at the end of the year the hospital can turn a profit. So we are already paying for the people that go to the emergency room in a non-direct type of way.

 

[tony detroit]

Originally posted by wamp
My view:
This world we live on has not even been discovered yet. How about we go the deepest part of the ocean, or inside a volcano etc...
We have more important issues at hand here on earth. I do not need to know the affects of weightlesnes on a cancer patient in orbit. I need to know what medicenes will help here on earth.
Sure, I find it awsome to see the Pics of it all out there, but, Money can be better spent here on earth right now.
What good is being able to go to space if your kids can't read how to get there. Public education is underfunded and overstocked. How about 200Billion for some more schools and better teachers? How about a school that actually has up to date books.
The whole Govt is corrupt. It is an election year and that is what has spurred this. Along with the Imigration issue, it all makes me sick. I am sickened to live in a country where our President is more concerned about getting re-elected than the issues at hand. Bush has raised 120million so far for his campaign... WHY??? All he has to do is call CNN and NBC and tell them he wants an exclusive and say this "If you like the work I have done so far, vote for me, If not, Don't" BOOM, he can give back the 120mill to the special intrest groups and we cann be happy.
Wamp for president!!!! I will rid this country of Govt. Corruption and bring back grass-roots politics!

You've got my vote. I'll be your running mate:joy:

 

[wamp]

As far as "some" technology comming out of the space program, I would invite you to read this bit of propoganda from NASA.

I have read that and more. I have studied technology and am not the only one who agrees that technology is developed for something out of a need or desire. I am currently fine with the technology in use today. Heck, I think we should go back a few years and improve on what we already have. The fact is, Yes, there have been some, Microwave, Velcro and many many more. I will not argue that point. I will however add that today, in the present economy, Space travel is not needed. We do not need to know what Fuel Source or Life was or is on Mars. We need to discover more renewable resources here on earth.
I am all for goint to distant planets. But Today, the money should be spent on developing Current Technologies.
Example-WiFi. Broadband Internet over the airways. We have just scratched the surface of it. More Funding=More Technology.
Fuel-Cells. No where near the technology level it should be at. Yes, I am fully aware that NASA is working on this technology for the Space Program. I am all for that, BUT, to say that we need to discover Mars on our feet at this time, Just makes no sense to me.
I want, Better Education, Better Teachers, Lower Crime, Higher paid and better paid Police Forces, Better Health Care for the elderly, A budget that actually makse sense that can be read by anyone.
As stated, I am not against NASA. I think it is really cool to see what is out there, but, I just think the timming is all wrong.
P.S. Do you have any studies on the Coral Reefs? Have you seen what lack of funding is doing to our ocean and National Parks.. Well, I ask you this, Without the Parks and the Reefs, How will we live here?

 

[overanalyzer]

Hmm $200 Billion is just the cede money. To build the parts and accomplish that it will be an awful fiscal burden. NASA is currently something like 1/10 of one percent of the budget - where as it was 4 or 6% of hte budget back in '69 when we landed on the moon.
Lets compare costs:
$12,000 = average cost of an overseas IT worker
$24,500 = average starting salary of a teacher in US (I haven't checked this figure lately)
$1 Million - average baseball players salary
$89 Billion - Rebuilding Cost of Iraq
$200 Billion - Cost to plan and begin a return to themoon and on to Mars
Who said the economy is on the rebound?? They are talking another huge round of layoffs here. I live on a street of only 18 houses - 4 different head of households have been laid off in 4 different industries.
Allowing $200 Billion for NASA is going to lead to waste!! I want to see a line item veto and a tax on corporations that use off-shoring resources for all segments (manufacturing through white collar work).
I am all for space exploration though - just think most of those people in government now are total crooks and will pack PORK into every piece of legislation that they can!

 

[kistheeze]

where's your sence of adventure? Wamp = you mention fuel cells = who's to say they won't significantly improve this technology at Nasa for their mars rovers?
"To boldly go where no man has gone before" is a pretty big statement - but one that I believe warrents an extra few bucks out of my share of the tax burden.

 

[wamp]

My adventure is here and now..
As stated, I am for space exploration but at these times, it is not warranted. They may very well improve them, but 200 billion dollars would go alot further here on earth..
Have you ever seen the deepest part of the ocean? Have you ever seen inside a Volcano? And I mean inside... Nope, So, All I am saying is that that money should be better allocated to Earth studies. It would cost far less to see the Earth as it would space. People say "You never know whats up there, there could be a source for fuel or other resources" etc... Well, We have not discovered all here yet.
Along with all this, I still say and will continue to say, Money needs to be spent on schools and Teachers. Without them, there will be no one around smart enough to fly the damn thing. My wife is still Laid off from work. I wonder everyday if I will have a job tommorow. The economy will not support such a bold plan. We are way in the Red with our budget anyway, How about getting us out of that first..
Here is a brief example:
In my current Occupation, I make about 40K a year. knowing that, If I were to come to you and say "Let me borrow 1 million dollars so I can build a house and discover it". What would you tell me? I would never be able to pay it back. The Debt would get deeper and deeper and I would have to skimp on other things just to pay you a little of what I owe. Would you like that? Now, Add this on top. Not only am I not paying you back, I am collecting money from people in my neighborhood for a yard service that I am not performing well. Also, I am spending money on beer and smokes. SO, to sumerize, I am owing you 1 million dollars, making my 40K salary and collecting money for a job not well done. And wasting money on something that serves you no purpose at this time... BUT, I am keeping Tobacco pullers and Beer makers in business and that will be my argument to you. I am helping the economy grow by wasting money I owe you. Welcome to Govt.
The money amount it takes, IMO, does not equal the possible rewards.
As I stated, I would love to see it all happen in the future, BUT, it is not time for it yet. If we can't live here on earth without using all our resources up, how can we possibly expcet to live on other planets.
This is alot of fun to see all the diffrent views on this topic.. I guess Imigration will be the next in line..LOL

 

[slofish]

Originally posted by wamp
As stated, I am for space exploration but at these times, it is not warranted. They may very well improve them, but 200 billion dollars would go alot further here on earth..
Have you ever seen the deepest part of the ocean? Have you ever seen inside a Volcano? And I mean inside... Nope, So, All I am saying is that that money should be better allocated to Earth studies. It would cost far less to see the Earth as it would space. People say "You never know whats up there, there could be a source for fuel or other resources" etc... Well, We have not discovered all here yet.
True we have not discovered all here yet. But to create another example using a home, you would not want to be confined to the 1500 square feet of your home for the rest of your life when you know there is so much more outside your front door.
Compared to the size of Earth, one single home is extremely tiny. There is much, much more to explore by opening your front door, walking down the street, or driving a couple hundred miles away, or taking a trip overseas to another country. Similarly, compared to the size of the universe, earth is extremely tiny. NASA is taking that step out the front door of earth and simply trying to just make it to the neighbors house.
As for exploring the inside of a volcano, there is not one material that will sustain the amount of heat inside a volcano, nor have we created a vehicle to hold up to the immense pressures at the bottom of the ocean. 200 billion would probably allow us to build a vehicle to get to the bottom of the ocean, but that too would seem like a ridiculous amount of money to spend on ocean discoveries. We have the technology to make it out to Mars as we have seen from the past NASA expeditions.
Also, there will always be people to fly the spacecraft if needed. Not to make this sound like propaganda, but all of the pilots are trained by the government. The govt has already allocated funds into each section of the military. Part of that 200 billion will go into the training of additional cosmonauts. Many of the cosmonauts were previously military pilots, who also recieved their training from our governments Air Force, Navy, etc. Additionally, there are the many top notch private universities in the world which will still produce some top notch students. Of course, im not advocating this, since i do attend a public college which has increased its tuition fees 100% since I began 4 years aago.

 

[polarpooch]

Unreal. Some of you folks lack forward vision. How sad.
You all act as if it's an "either or" proposition. It's not. It's not about shortchanging some fuzzy social program you feel beholden to...it's not about taking money away from cancer research. It's 1% of the total budget, and the as to yet unestimable costs projected out into the future (the 200 billion to the RIDICULOUS 1 trillion dollar number figures I've seen thrown around) have NOTHING to do with the current deficeit or state of the economy.
Does the known universe begin and end at the earth's atmosphere? Sounds like it should, reading all of these posts.
Imagine what we can learn from exploring other planets, stars, galaxies...from challenging ourselves to go beyond what we think is possible. Imagine what that challenge will mean to us in terms of advances in technology and pure knowledge. Space is the final frontier folks---if you don't think it's WORTH exploring, you've acquiesced to the contentment of the status quo. You've lost the spirit. How boring.

 

[mightyoxjuice]

We can better use 200 billion dollars here on earth. Oil is such a problem, we need to find alternative fuels sources. What will the cost be for fuel that may be found on the moon?
Invest the money taking care of our air and water.
Down with the nincompoop with a below average IQ.

 

[rogeta]

Hello everyone,
First off I would like to congradulate swilbs83 for beating me to the point on the health care. I will answer the follow up the question that Tony brought up as best I can.
We already pay for national health care, the money is just mis-managed. How can Scotland afford NHC but we cannot with our economy and the amount of taxes we pay.
I don't know how much they pay in taxes over in Scotland, but I will agree with the mismanagment of funds. But Cosnsider....
Maybe Scotland payes a lot more tax then we do. Here is a scenerio that I do have some background on. Over in Sweden, they get all kinds of awesome benefits. They not only get free health care, free college, and free medical school, but they even receive 5 weeks paid vacaition and many get more then that. That sounds great to me, but 1) the government tightly regulates and controls bussiness 2) the media is openly controlled by the government and 3) the taxes are exstrodinarily high. In fact the highest tax bracket starts at just $28,000 and your income tax is 50%. This has had a major affect not unlike what is happening in America right now. A lot of their bussinesses, entrepreneurs, and scientest left the country.
I don't have a big plan to avoid the problem that you described. All I can come up with is to 1) have people pay up front or 2) have them sign a tying contract with stark penelties for non-repayed debts. The only kind of Health care that I can think of that might actually work is an Insurance program that helps you pay. I mean, if you were to institute free health care, it would cost too much for the government right off. So the first thing they would do is jack up the taxes (which causes other problems) and then, when it still cost too much they would put a price cap on the doctors. Then you have deficits which is caused by two things 1)You have doctors who don't want to take anymore patients because they aren't getting paid for it and 2) you are not going to have a lot of students coming up wanting to be doctors. Who wants an occupation that goes only as far as the govrnment will allow?
These are just my veiws and I, in no way, wish to push them on anyone. I will close what is probably my longest thread ever with the simple wish that everyone remember what the governments main purpose is, To punish evil and reward good.
Looking up,
Rocco
"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it"~ Thomas Sowell

 

[wamp]

True we have not discovered all here yet. But to create another example using a home, you would not want to be confined to the 1500 square feet of your home for the rest of your life when you know there is so much more outside your front door.
But would you go out and spend money on your neighbors yard or spend money in your home?
I can and do understand discovery of other worlds and the technology that comes with it. BUT, I do not see in any way how spending 200Billion to step on the moon again will benefit the Teachers, Fireman, Police and other underpaid, overworked public officials. There is absolutely no argument in the world where anyone can tell me that these employes of the states are getting farily treated.
Somone said it si 1% of our budget.. Your Point? Can you budget 0$ in your house hold? I can't. Thats what you have in a deficet, 0$. We do not have any money if we are in debt. I owe 120K on my house. Do I have any money? Nope.. I have some in my pocket but it is not mine because I owe someone it. When in the end of the day, my bills are paid, then I will have money.
I just think, again, that if we are going to spend all this money on discovery, we really should straighten other things out first.

 

[iceburger]

Down with the nincompoop with a below average IQ
I assume you mean George W.
How is he a nincompoop? Sure I don't agree with everything he's done, but my God, he's the president of the united states. All I've seen is people saying that they hate him or can't stand him and whatnot, why? I have heard very very few valid reasons to put this man down and what he's done.
I suppose your answer would be his effect on the economy.
This is not a valid arguement, I am an economic major, the president , while he does have some control of the economy, it is very limited. I would really like to get into this more but as I have to go to class, time will not allow at the moment.
I owe 120K on my house. Do I have any money? Nope.. I have some in my pocket but it is not mine because I owe someone it.
But you are able to spend that money, even tho you owe 120k on your house?...that is the same thing...ok lets compare your reef tank to the space program, your arguement is that since the government is in debt so much that they should'nt spend money on things like space travel, whereas you may pay your monthly payements at the end of the month on your house, you still owe money on your house, so spending on your reef tank is aceptable?...it is, no one is saying it is'nt. If you aply your arguement to yourself, everytime that you spend a dime, while you still have the note on your house, you are spending in deficit
this post is not a flame, i'm just trying to put a different spin on things. If you go your whole life without looking at both sides, then how will you know you've got the best side no offence was intended

 

[tony detroit]

Originally posted by wamp
Teachers, Fireman, Police and other underpaid, overworked public officials.
Teachers get off more days in a one year period than I do in five years. They do not sweat, the hardest thing they do all day other than put up with stress is walk up and down stairs. I'm guessing you personally know a teacher to be this involved in your comments about teachers. Sure their pay may not be great but they do not work very hard IMO either.
Police here make 60K plus after a good while, say 5-10years. Engineers start at 50K for most mechanicals here. EE's start mid 60's. Besides salary, my main complaint is the retirement options awarded to a police/fireman and a for example an engineer. No matter how much money and no matter how wisely he invests it is close to impossible for the engineer which is a well paying job, to come out with a retirement plan close to that of a policeman or fireman. I do not know all of the statitistics, etc. but policeman and fireman all things considered, and compared to other jobs are very well taken care of jobs here in Michigan. I realize it may be different where you live. But based on the govt. employees I, my family and friends know that work here are VERY well taken care of compared to the rest of the general population. Maybe where you live teachers are compensated poorly, but in my home town they make over 60K, get ridiculous benefits, have a stellar retirement/pension plan, and have a ridiculously easy job.

 

[wamp]

Nope, I know no teachers, but I do see the education dollars at work when they come here and apply for a job.
I realize that I spend some of my money, But I pay my bills first. If I owe you money, I will pay you. I will not spend money on my reef tank while in over my head.
Now, back to the House analogy, I will pay the house payment. I will pay all other bills first. Then with any leftover after Uncle sam, I will buy some things for myself. Now how about this way:
If I owe 10,000$ to Visa, would it be wise to pay the minium while still charging things? I don't know of any one in the economic field who would say it would be. How is funding a program of this magnitude any diffrent? How is pouring money into NASA going to help the economy?
I know this is not a flame thread, I take no offence at diffrent views at all.
A teacher making 60K?? I need to move there. I am not doubting you, well maybe a little, but it is no where near that here in VA. Maybe around the larger cities it might, might be 45, but here it is generally around 32.. For the police, it is 26 and the fire, 24...
Yes, they do get alot of days off, but I also know that alot of that time off is spent grading and planning. Not to mention having to put up with kids who disrespect them, spit on them, and even violence against them.
I ain't sayin it is the hardest job in the world, but it is also far from the easiest. As far as the police, I would say it is definetly one of the more stressfull..

 

[slofish]

just to reiterate, no offence is intended in my writings, Just a good ole friendly debate.
Sorry wamp, but Iceburger brings up a really good point in his analogy with the reef tank, "everytime that you spend a dime, while you still have the note on your house, you are spending in deficit". And you actually proved the point to yourself. You said "Then with any leftover after Uncle sam, I will buy some things for myself." But there is no left over. You are still in a 120k debt. Your house is a bill, its just paid off very slowly over 15-30 years. not until you finish off all your payments are you no longer in debt. Accordingly, you really dont have anything left over and should put every single dollar you have into paying the loan you owe. Sorry, but that means you cant spend any money on your tank.
But would you go out and spend money on your neighbors yard or spend money in your home?
We are not spending money on our neighbors yard, we are spending money on the vehicle to get to our neighbors yard. We are spending money to get information from our neighbors. We learn from them. Similarly, people watch tv shows to learn how to deal with their kids better, how to cook better, how to etc... There is a potential for knowledge and the money is being spent on getting there to harvest that knowledge.
When television was first created. Everyone thought it was a complete bust and almost worthless until something important and/or interesting to us was broadcasted over the airwaves. Inventions are made everyday, we just only care about the ones that pertain to us. Part of the 200 billion dollars goes to inventing the technology to getting us out into space. Whether or not the amount of money we spend to build the technology we use to search for new information is justified will be determined when if we discover something useful to humans.
daniel411- amazing how such a simple questions sparks such debate.

 

[marvida]

Interesting debate!
Regardless of how you feel keep in mind that this is proposed to take 30 years. That comes to about 7 administration changes. A lot can happen in that time. Another common theme I see is that the $$ should stay here. Very little of this cash is actually going to leave this planet. Most will stay here and create jobs, stimulate economies, etc. I like the comment I read earlier about it not being a choice of either/or.
Also, I spend money on my neighbor's yard everytime I pay taxes.
This has been a very pleasent, thought provoking debate.