23 days in hypo, have 3 ich spots

[guitarfish]

Hi Terry,
Thanks for the feedback. I started Cupramine yesterday. I'm no expert, but the appearance of these white spots every 3 weeks, followed by their disappearance, as well as the scratching, darting behavior of the fish, leads me to believe it's ich.
The second time around, the fish were STILL IN hypo, at day 23, when the spots appeared. Nothing had been added to the tank, no fish or other equipment.
We'll see what the Cupramine does I guess.

 

[clint_reno]

Sorry to hear about your situation. I hope it works out for you. I read through your thread, and I think it is wise you resisted using medications.
Did you end up borrowing or buying a different refractometer just to be sure the one you have isn't damaged?
:notsure:

 

[guitarfish]

No, I only have access to one refrac and won't be buying another. Maybe if I run into someone with one I can compare.

 

[jwhiteuwc]

There are some ICH parisite breeds that are out there that can withstand hypo.
If you don't believe me check out this study. I also consider this the bible of ICH.
Here's a great 5 part series on ICH
Part one:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2003/mini1.htm
Part 2:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2003/mini2.htm
Part 3:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2004/mini3.htm
Part 4:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2004/mini4.htm
and Part 5:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2004/mini5.htm

 

[guitarfish]

Thank you for posting these jwhiteuwc, I did read them. The author (TerryB, posted above), mentioned that low salinity strain of ich. I would be very surprised that I have it, I'm not that...."lucky".

 

[jwhiteuwc]

I'm actually treating my Hippo tang and 2 clowns right not. Just in the 3rd day, I've noticed a few spots seems to be falling off.
Best of luck with your treatment.

 

[guitarfish]

Thanks. I am in day 2 of Cupramine, which is like chemotherapy. I wish I didn't have to do something this drastic.

 

[guitarfish]

Terry, you and I have been going back and forth about whether my issue is really ich in the first place. Here's some additional news to report:
Last night I noticed one of the ich spots on my yellow tang was particularly larger than it was at first, bulging out. Tonight ... it's gone, and there's a wound on the fish at that spot. So now there's a tomont looking for a place to attach down at the bottom. I see another bulging ich spot on the other side of the tang, I presume he's gonna leave next.

 

[jwhiteuwc]

Compliment well deserved. You did an amazing job and great detail.
I should be the one thanking you for doing such a thing. Helped me out a great deal when I had to deal with ICH.
Brovo.. and keep up the great work.
p.s. I didn't know it was written by you until Elfdoctors mentioned you are a member/mod. on this forum. We are lucky to have such a educated person on board.

 

[harlequinnut]

Originally posted by cinhark
I have been having the same problem with my porky, he's been in qt for 3 months now. when I start raising salt in tank after hypo, he starts getting ick again???? just getting very

Im not sure I will ever get him cured, I finally decided to try copper treatment today I sure hope this helps Ive tried everything else from hypo to antibiotics. Good luck
Coincidentally, the same thing happen to my porky. As soon as I started to raise the salt in the tank to 1011, he started getting white spots on his fin again. All the other fish shows no sign of ick except for the porky. The tank has been in hypo for almost a month. I may have to lower the sg back to 1009 and wait another month.

 

[guitarfish]

Terry, I'm re-reading your articles and I have a question. I've been scratching my head trying to figure out how 14 days of treatment with copper can be sufficient if C. irritans has a 28 day typical lifecycle. If I may quote your article:
At “reef-type” temperatures the tomonts take from 3 to 28 days to excyst (hatch) with the peak between 4 and 8 days (Colorni, 1985). This variance may be a strategy for survival. However, after two weeks in the tomont stage the number of theronts produced and their ability to infect are greatly reduced (Colorni, 1992).
Based on all the above, it seems the strategy with copper is to kill any theronts that excyst during 14 days before they can infect fish.
The only discrepancy I see here is that the fish being treated should be removed from the copper treatment tank after the treatment period, as opposed to removing the copper from the tank and leaving the fish in it. It would seem in the latter case cysts could still release theronts and infect fish now that copper is reduced. Whereas in the former case, the fish are presumably "clean" and removed from the environment all together.

 

[guitarfish]

That's what I figured. I plan to go 21 days.
Thanks.

 

[guitarfish]

TerryB,
Earlier in this thread we discussed whether or not my occurance is in fact ich or not. I was in an LFS yesterday amd saw a deceased yellow tang lying in a tank. It was covered with ich. The spots were as white as powdered sugar, easily seen, and they were also very small.
Contrast this with my yellow tang: the spots on mine, which are few in number, are not bright white, but are in fact quite hard to see unless the fish is at just the right angle under the lights. Also, the size of the white protrusions on my tang are between 1/32" - 1/16" in size just before they fall off, which is pretty big, I think.
Considering this contrast, and that hypo appeared to have no effect leads me to ask...if it isn't ich, what on earth could it be? Do you know of anything else that would fit the description.
Thanks!

 

[guitarfish]

Checking in - it's day 16 in copper. The yellow tang has had spots through day 13. No visible spots now, but she is still very twitchy, like she's shivering. There are pits or in at least 3-4 places where there were white spots. Her appetite has diminshed a lot, she is barely eating flakes now, not good. If she doesn't eat in the next day or two, I'm probably going to start removing the copper. This fish may live the rest of it's life in a QT tank

 

[beth]

The "pits" are likely the beginning of HLLE.
Are you able to get a pic up? I just can't under why you had such a problem with hypo.

 

[guitarfish]

Maybe I wasn't clear. The white ich spots get larger, become almost 1/16" in size, then once they fall off there are pits left where the ich spots were. I've been studying this fish meticulously daily.

 

[guitarfish]

Yes, I have been testing faithfully. It is pretty disappointing. I haven't done anything with formalin, though I do have some should the need arise. The tang isn't eating like she used to, I don't want to stress her excessively if I can avoid it. I'm going to try to get her eating better, then go from there. Thanks TB.

 

[guitarfish]

I am using Seachem's test kit, since they make Cupramine. I ran a test with the sample water they include with the kit and compared it to mine. I'm right on 0.5.
A friend of mine has a 75g with ich, he isn't as avid about getting rid of it as I am, so he uses garlic and a variety of things to keep it at bay when it appears. (He's lost fish to ich as a result). My point in mentioning this is he has a yellow tang as I do, and has observed many of the same symptoms - pits on the fish when cysts fall off; some tan discoloration marks; he's mentioned it's very difficult to see the ich unless the fish is under the light just so.
Presently my tang has been in Cupramine for 18 days. As far as I can tell, all white spots are gone, and I don't see any new ones. However, he is still very "twitchy", and isn't eating much at all.
I can start removing the copper a bit, try to get his appetite to perk up, and take my chances with the ich, otherwise if left as is he may die. What a pain.

 

[guitarfish]

Well everyone, I have failed. The yellow tang, which has been through hypo TWICE with no success, is now on day 18 of copper and TADA...a new white spot on her side.
If this isn't ich, I don't know what it is. The spots appear, disappear 7-10 days later, then more appear in 2-1/2 - 3 weeks. The fish is so lethargic right now and has stopped eating, so I was going to start removing the copper today and hope for the best. Well, I didn't get to hope very long - the new white spot means whatever this THING is, it's still present.
I do not know of any other disease, parasite or condition that this could be. It looks like ich, acts like ich, but won't die like ich should.
I can't keep this fish in my QT tank for ever. The LFS certainly won't take him back, and of course he's not going in the main tank. Euthanasia comes to mind, unless someone has an idea of something else I haven't thought of.
This is very disappointing.

 

[munciefish]

Hi Guitarfish,
I am sorry to hear about your Tang
I'm new here but I had a salt Molly w/ich (head to tail) due to drop in temp so I put her in my hosp tank which I'm currently using PARAGUARD in. The spots were gone in 2 days.I know you were trying to avoid meds but since its already in play it might be worth a shot.