5 fishes have ich or velvet or something else, HELP!

[stupid_naso]

My friend has a 120 gal tank. In it she has five fishes that have been clearly sick. There are other fishes in there too, Triger, Yellow Tail Damsel. dragon morray, corals, anemones, and feather dusters. Powder brown, died the other day. Tomato Clown, Domino Damsel, Coral Beauty, and Yellow Tang are infected by either ich or velvet or something else.
I, personally, haven't seen velvet before. I've seen ich and this doesn't look like it. I read some posts about velvet, and it says that it will kill fast. However, the tomato has been sick for over a week now. According to Terry B, in one of the post, this couldn't have been velvet0.
Here are the symptoms. The clown has whitish powder all over its body. It looks like it's been dipped in flour or something. It's stil swimming, rather jerky and fast. Another thing is it is still eating.
Domino damsel is swimming faster and jerkier than the clown. It doesn't appear to have the white powder all over its body. However, it's not black, it turns white, as if it's stressed. He often hides under or in between rocks.
The yellow tang has these white patches, bigger than ich spots. You cannot really see it. I noticed it just today. It's still eating. It doesn't swim like the other two earlier.
The coral beauty has the whitish powder on its head, just like the clown, but around head area only. It is still swimming normally and eating like normal.
Here are treatments that she has been doing. First she put Kick-Ich into the display tank. She added Melafix because the damsel has popeye for a day. The popeye is gone now.
After awhile she decided to set a hospital tank. It does have power head and heater, though there is no filter, is this ok?
She put the Powder brown and the clown in the hospital, because these two are the first two that got sick. I'm not quite sure why, but she put them back to the main tank after awhile. And then she put them back to the hospital tank. I'm not with her during all these things. Anyway, now everyone is back in the main tank, except the Powder Brown who died. Can anyone help?
stupid_naso
In the hospital tank, she has put Maracyn 2 and Copper Safe.

 

[iamafishnerd]

dealing with problems in a reef tank are extremly difficult. fist medications can and will harm most invertabrates. next medications can distroy nitifing bacteria that are present in live rock and sand.
The only way to treat disease like ich in a reef tank is to remove the fish and place into a hospital tank. This is difficult because of the amount of fish you have. daily monitoring and water changes must be made because of high ammonia
levels and hish carbon dioxide with will lower ph.
set up a tank with a good heater set at 82
this high temp with speed up the life cycle of ich. salinaty 1.012. place a piece of live rock for biofiltration with a powerhead of air stone.
place PVC pieces for fish to hide. do not medicate, this only stresses the fish out!
in your display tank the bacteria from the live rock with consume the pathogen after a few weeks.
good luck and consider placing new fish into the quarantine tank for a few weeks before placing it into your display tank.

 

[beth]

A powdery appearance, or "dusted" is a symptom of velvet. Does this look like mucous or does it look like parasites attached to the fish? Was a fish added to the tank resently? And, if so, was it the clownfish?
See if you can get more details with exact description of what your friend sees on the fish. Are the gills swollen, rapid breathing? Ask your friend to use a magnifying glass so that more exacting details can be given.

 

[stupid_naso]

Beth, it does look like mucous more than parasites. This is as best as I can describe it, there are light white spots all over the body. And it is concealed by mucous. So it looks like the clown is completely covered by mucous and light tiny white spots.
The recently added fish was the Powder Brown, which was added about two or three weeks ago. The clown has been in there for almost a year.
The rapid breathing as far as I can remember, only happens to the damsel. The clown seems to be breathing normally. The gills don't seem to be swollen. The clown often stops at the top of the aquarium and float there. I don't know if that helps. Just an extra info.
She's currently unavailable, I'll ask her ASAP.
Beth, thanks for helping. I really want to help her. She's the one who got me into this hobby .
stupid_naso

 

[beth]

Terry/Ed: Please comment. I have 2 possibilities in mind for what the problem is, but can't figure out exactly. What do you guys think here?? Possibly a dual disease process of both parasite and bacterial?

 

[seaguru]

O.K. I am not going to try to diagnose this one... but I do have a few suggestions...
Q and patience are the two best routes to keeping beautiful healthy fish for a long time. Suggest you search this forum for Quarantine (and Hyposalinity by H2oski if you plan to use) and read and learn all you can. If you do not put a new arrival in Q first, you chance getting into the situation you are in now... in my opinion I would pull all fish out and put them in Q... Based on the info provided and others' posts I think I would definitely use Maricyn2 (make sure you get the one for Saltwater). In conjuction with that I would do Hyposalinity, but ONLY IF YOU HAVE OR PURCHASE A REFRACTOMETER to accurately measure the salinity/SG. Best buy on the net is here $70:
<a href="http://www.***************.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=REFRACT-PA&Category_Code=Hydrometer" target="_blank">http://www.***************.com/Merchant2/mercha nt.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=REFRACT-PA&Category_Code=Hydrometer</a>
... you can slowly lower the salinity during the 5 days of M2 meds. Now if you don't have the time/patience/$$$/inclination to do hypo then use copper with the M2 (I have before with success).
Now, about the bio-filter (which by the way is a MUST if you don't want to loose fish to ammonia/nitrite spikes/levels)... if you want to use some of your already cycled media (bio-balls) from your display set up... just take any bucket and PVC fittings, drill the bucket put fittings in bottom, put the bucket above your container level so you can pipe the water back to the container (gravity feed) and use a pump to get the water from the Q container up to your home-made drip filter. If you want take a plastic drip pan made for plant pots and drill holes in it to make a drip tray in the bucket. I have done this with a 5 gallon Coralife salt bucket (lots of bio-balls!) and have kept many fish simultaneously in Q for months with no problems. It sounds like a lot to do but it is the RIGHT WAY to keep and stock saltwater fish. There is a great product that eases the fears during Q. If you in any way think you may not have a cycled bio-filter to use during Q, I highly recommend using some "bacteria in a bottle". I have used the Tropical Science brand many times with seeming success. You can get it here:
<a href="http://www.**************.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=6&pCatId=4003" target="_blank">http://www.**************.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=6&pCatId=4003</a>
for what I consider a reasonable price considering the cost of your fish (investment).
Just my .02, and best of luck, Joe.

 

[beth]

Yes, I was thinking along the same line, Ed, with the possibilities you list but still don't have a clear diagnosis in mind, thus I don't like recommending. The symptoms could be indicators of any of the disease processes you mention [except velvet...as you said, the fish would be dead by now].
Unfortunately, the likely diseases all have different treatments and I hate to advise multiple treatments when I can't get a clear handle on the diagnosis. Shoot.
I think the hyposalinity with the antibiotic treatment is probably the best shot. As velvet seems very unlikely due to no fish mortality with disease present for quiet some time. I thought of Brook, too, but seems like the infection has been going on too long wo having any fatalities to pin this on brooklynella.
Get more info from your friend about symptoms, using the magnifying glass if possible. Hopefully, you can get this info today ASAP. I agree with Ed, to start with the hyposalinity and antibiotic treatment using Maracyn2 for Saltwaterfish. I was thinking of a pre-hospital formalin bath to treat for possible brooklynella, but, as Ed suspects that the fish may be suffering from skin irritation from this medication, then that should be skipped at this point---the fish have already been getting this treatment anyway with no results.

 

[beth]

I'll 2nd that opinion on the H2Oski thread!! That thread is more a discussion between 2 advanced aquarist, then it is a guide for the masses.
Ed: Curious how you would setup an un-cycled hospital tank, since you are recommending here to use clean aged water [and not main tank water, I'm assuming?]. What do you suggest for keeping such a tank from cycling?
My bet is that getting most hobbyists, especially new ones, to do daily, if not more frequent, water changes is quite a task that many might be lax about doing! When offering hobbyist help here, I worry just as much about them NOT maintaining optimum water conditions in an un-cycled hospital tank as I do about treating the fish. What is your opinion here? Do you think I’m being overly concerned with that? Or do people really pay attention to tip-top water quality, no matter the expense and hassle, while using an un-cycled hospital?
Perhaps we should run a poll and see what people have to say…

 

[seaguru]

Hello Anthem and Beth,
Please feel free to point out where I may be in error at any time... But if this is a free-speech site, I feel inclined to give my opinions based on my research and experience. If the "elders" of this forum feel I am ramblin' on too much I suppose they can/will delete my posts. (and I know you may be one of them)...
I am just not used to having my opinions censored!
In defense of the Hyposalinity post by H2oski you refer to, yes it may be rather dated/old, but it took me many searches and considerable time to come across the wealth of information contained in that discussion between two very experienced hobbyists... my point in continuing to recommend it to people is that I feel it is not a good idea for new inexperienced hobbyists to go and try the latest and greatest method i.e. hyposalinity i.e. osmotic shock therapy without having solid knowledge of the subject they are dealing with.
From what I have read on this forum, more often than not hypo is recommended without full, complete, comprehensive explainations of the hows and whys. I almost fell into the pit, almost made the mistake of attempting hypo w/o an accurate measuring device (refractometer). Other than the post titled 'hyposalinity' by h2oski (for anyone interested who may be reading this) I have not read one mention of the 'what if you mistakenly or carelessly take the specific gravity below 1.009, 1.008, 1.007 in anyone elses opinions/recommendations to use hypo! Now if the careful, thorough, curious hobbyist is directed to the h2oski post he will read/find out about osmoregulation and that hyposalinity at 1.009 is just barely above what the fish cannot handle...
my point here is I am just trying to save our fellow hobbyists (who may not be as judicious about searching for info as I was) some time. In conclusion I defend my right to recommend what I think is worthwhile valuable info. It would take the authors of that thread a long time to post all of that info again.
Beth and Anthem I can tell you both have been at this for a long time (as I) and I value and respect most of the info you both have put out. (I have read many of your posts) I only ask for equal respect and the courtesy to let me call 'em as I see 'em. Cordially, Joe.

 

[seaguru]

Terry B. Ahhhhh! Have been waiting to ask you (and Beth, Anthem, Trey, ... all you ol' salts) yes ask you are there any other pathogens/parasites/organisms that hyposalinity eliminates (interupts their life-cycle)??? Don't have the data available that you probably do.
Thanks, Joe.

 

[beth]

Well, a week ago, I would have said "no", but since I read Terry's resent article in FAMA, where he recommends hypo [somewhat generally], perhaps the answer, at this point is "perhaps".
Terry, are you recommending hypo now as a possible preventative/treatment measure for other parasites besides ich?

 

[seaguru]

Hello Ed,
O.K. I give in, you win... (just a figure of speach as I do not feel we are competing here)... Thank-you for siting specific examples to further explain where you were coming from earlier.
I see that my recommendations appear a bit too absolute...
What I tried to convey in the RIGHT WAY statement was not how I go about Q but that Q itself is the right path for all to take.
My homemade wet/dry filter is only one of many ways that a bio-filter can be employed, was just trying to illustrate an alternative to NO filter at all...
Yes I jumped the gun on the Areometer and after comparing it's reading to a refractometer at lower salinity it was notably off...
And finally on the refractometer, what I meant to convey is that $70 was the cheapist I found on the Net, not necessarily the best tho I understand that I do not have benchmark data to backup any BEST claims. Honestly I am so excited with the refractometer I purchased (reliable readings, ease of use, well built, etc.) that I have gone overboard in recommending it to all. The other reason I am preaching hypo with and only with refractometer readings is I fear without accurate readings hobbyists trying hypo may take the SG well below 1.009 and possibly endanger their fish's health unknowingly...
In conclusion Ed, thanks again for responding and I will calm down a bit on my posts...
Cordially, Joe.

 

[beth]

&#8220;Free Speech&#8221; is applicable to your own website, not this one. People are certainly given liberty to speak about their exp. or info that they have, share knowledge with follow hobbyist, but no one, including Sharks, have license to say whatever they want. The reason that we have moderators here is to keep the BB on target with the overall goals that the SWF.com owners have for this BB. We hope that people will be honest regarding their advise and exp, and mostly everyone here is, however, if everyone were allowed to say whatever they want to, then there would be no reason for mods and this place would likely not have achieved the high caliber hobby BB status that it currently enjoys.
While the link-ban to other store sites has been lifted, Sharks use their own judgement regarding how much of that to allow given a particular circumstance. In terms of recommending a particular piece of equipment, I see no reason why we can’t just give the name of the equipment and the manufacture, and, if you want, link to the manufacture’s webpage. An individual member who consistently post links to other store sites, could come under scrutiny by mods or the store owners.
Ed’s advise is sound in this regard...even if he is a bit blunt at times....

 

[stupid_naso]

Beth, Anthem, Terry and seaguru,
I haven't been able to contact my friend for the past two days. I'll recommend the large water change in the display tank.
Another info is, no other fish, except the tomato and powder brown, has been into the quarantine tank.
Thanks again,
stupid_naso

 

[stupid_naso]

Just a little update on this horrible case of disease outbreak.
My friend, looking at her tank and seeing all her fishes sick, she took the last alternative, two cleaner wrasse. They eat brine shrimp, she has fed them.
The yellow tang is clear, the white patches are gone. The other fishes are lining up to get cleaned. Damsel is fine now, coral beauty seems to be ok. My friend is going to do large water change in the display tank this Friday. She'll change the water completely in the q tank to remove all the meds she has put in there, and quarantine the clown by himself.
By this weekend, I'll take a picture of the clown and post it, so you guys can see and diagnose it.
Thanks,
stupid_naso

 

[stupid_naso]

Update
The clown is eaten by the dragon morray eel .
End of story.
stupid_naso