7 weeks hypo and still ick!

mproctor4

mproctor4

Member
I have two tangs I placed in QT. Neither tang had any evidence of ick but I decided to hypo anyway to be on the safe side. I took one week to lower the salinity. The tank is bare bottom with one piece of base rock that was dried out when I put it in the tank. Second week into the hypo the powder blue tang developed a mild case of ick that lasted about 4 days. Since the last spot of ick was gone it has been 5 weeks now. I kept the salinity at 1.007-1.008 until last week. Last week I raised it to 1.009 because hubbie has a neon dottyback in the tank that wasn't eating or coming out. I was hoping that raising the salinity a little might help it. The very day I decided I was ready to start raising the salinity to end hypo, the yellow tang has spots on his side!
There is no sign of any spots on the fins, it looks like pimples on his side, about the size of a large grain of sand. No way to get a good picture because he is too fast and they are rather difficult to see with naked eye. He is acting normal and eating like a pig. I am soooo frustrated. I guess I should just be grateful that it didn't show up after they were in the DT. I checked my refractometer and it is calibrated correctely. So my first question is how does ick (if that is what it is) survive for 7 weeks in hypo? Is there a chance my refractometer isn't working correctly? I checked the salinity almost daily, every other day at the most and it has never went over 1.009. Can I actually trust hypo to ever completely get rid of ick, because right now I feel like it was a complete waste of time. Is it possible the rock held the parasite?
I really don't want to treat with copper but feel like I don't have a choice. The biggest issue for me is that I have to move them to another tank. My normal QT tank was full so we put them in a 29g biocube and I don't want copper in there. I know moving them isn't that big of a deal but it will cause more stress. Also the other tank is a 20g long. They were very small when I bought them and have done well in the biocube, but they are growing like weeds and they need to get into the bigger tank. What do you all think????? Should I take the rock out and stick with hypo (although scared of it now) or copper? Also do I need to raise the salinity before I start copper or can I add it while raising the salinity? I have never done copper before because I hate using chemicals so I have some research to do.
 
tangs rule

tangs rule

Active Member
I'd be sure it's ich, and not sand - since there is a piece of dry base, there could be some specs on the bottom that he picks up IF he ever sleeps or hides on his side. Yellows are not known to sleep on their side like a hippo does, but they could surely pick up some sand on a side if they laid in some....
Other than that - the last batch of fish I qtined I had a similar thing happen in week 3. They had been in hypo for 2 weeks and I started seeing ich on the bottom 1/2 of my blue-girdled angle in the third week, and they were on the increase! - so yes I started running coppersafe by mardel (though an sure cupramine would do it too) and within a week they were all gone and never returned....I maintained the copper level at each waterchange, and tested it to be sure I was running it kinda strong. I too was really suprised to see ich so late in the process, and I had been at 1.009 max for like 3 weeks. After another 2 weeks I did a total breakdown of the Qtine tank and stearlized the tank/filter/powerhead (scrubbed the glass bottom w/vinegar) and replaced the filter and did a 100% waterchange. didn't replace the copper this time, just hypo and that seemed to do the trick.
They should be fine in a 20L tank, but I'd leave OUT the rock and use PVC elbows & T's for their shelter if your gonna use either copper based meds...Also throw in a dark coffee cup or 2 - black/blue - somthing dark - the yellow tang I know will love that and tangs need a dark place to hide....good luck, keep us posted!
Edit: no need to raise sg to begin copper - just start the treatment per either mfg's instructions. Coppersafe is "buffered or chleated" copper and cupramine is "ionic" copper- - they dose at a totally different rate, and the test kits for the two are different, cupramine is made by seachem and their test kit for copper works with their cupramine, while coppersafe is made by mardel, it's easier to find, and API (aquarium pharma. inc.) makes a descent copper test kit for the buffered stuff...
 
mproctor4

mproctor4

Member
Tangs Rule--thanks for the response! At first I thought it might be sand, I was living in denial. I am certain it is a parasite (ick). Spots have been there for 3 days now. They start as a bump under the skin and then "erupt". After 2 weeks of copper how much longer did you keep them in hypo? It just scares me that this fish has been in the QT for 8 weeks and just now shows signs. Not sure how long I should wait once they are spot free to feel confident putting them in the DT. We are going on vacation the first of August. It needs to be done by then because it is too much responsibility for our house/dog/reef sitter. She does a good job but that is pushing the limit.
Hubbie had a similar experience and lost a dwarf angel at about week 3-4 from the ick. I thought it was just a fluke or something went wrong with hypo, but apparently not. Guess I will do some shopping tomorrow for PVC and copper med/test kit. It is good to know that there are different test kits.
 
tangs rule

tangs rule

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by mproctor4 http:///forum/thread/385899/7-weeks-hypo-and-still-ick#post_3386641
Tangs Rule--thanks for the response! At first I thought it might be sand, I was living in denial. I am certain it is a parasite (ick). Spots have been there for 3 days now. They start as a bump under the skin and then "erupt". After 2 weeks of copper how much longer did you keep them in hypo? It just scares me that this fish has been in the QT for 8 weeks and just now shows signs. Not sure how long I should wait once they are spot free to feel confident putting them in the DT. We are going on vacation the first of August. It needs to be done by then because it is too much responsibility for our house/dog/reef sitter. She does a good job but that is pushing the limit.
Hubbie had a similar experience and lost a dwarf angel at about week 3-4 from the ick. I thought it was just a fluke or something went wrong with hypo, but apparently not. Guess I will do some shopping tomorrow for PVC and copper med/test kit. It is good to know that there are different test kits.
Well it sounds like ich.....I noticed my fish were pretty clear till like week 3, then there were more & more (daily) signs of the little buggers on the angle.....That's when I started copper.
I ran copper for `2weeks - saw NO signs of ich after the first 3 days though......it cleared up quick......that;s when (after 2 weeks with copper) I broke down the qtine tank 100% and stearlized EVERYTHING with HOT tap&vinegar. replaced the filter, and put them back in @ 1.009 water. They stayed clear for a week, so I started comming back up with sg... If they had broke out again I'd a retraeted with copper and kept @ hypo for another week/10days, the broke down the tank&stearlized again and retried......Now, my 2 batches of recently Qtined fish are in seperate "isolation" tanks with substrate&little rock. They are doin fine and am just watching them daily for signs of ich....2weeks so far so good. ...But if I didn't have these other two tanks running, I'd still have them in the 20&30g. tanks I treated them in, though back up to normal sg and just monitor for another 2 weeks....
Once they are spot free - i'd go minimum 3 weeks and 4 would be better, with 5weeks ideal - if you have ALOT of fish in a huge DT like me, I'd rather keep the newbies in qt/isolation than catch dozens of large fish and set up 6qtine tanks and have to save thousands of dollars worth of fish.,
Along with the pvc please find some dark coffee cups - they work the BEST....they are glazed so nothing will absorb into them. DO NOT get any red clay type pottery/plant pots - they are not glazed, and are porus and will leach toxins into your qtine water and will kill fish. The dark color will give the tangs somewhere to hide & feel safe where it's nice&dark - like a cave.....my orange shoulder tang and navarchus angle spent alot of time in the coffee cups and slept there too.
FYI - on yellow tangs and other lightly colored tangs, it is NOT uncommon or a bad thing for their little scalpel (the sharp external bone on their tail) to turn a dark color during extended or strong copper treatment. It'll usually turn dark yellow or brown but will return to normal once he gets out of qtine and is in a normal tank for a couple months. This is because the bone absorbs some of the copper and turns yellow. It'll return to it's normal color.
 
mproctor4

mproctor4

Member
I've tried to get a picture and it just won't show up. The spots are mostly gone, but I know it is still lurking there. I did get some copper but need to clean out the other tank before I move them and I work a 3 day stretch. I work long hours, a few days in a row and then get several days off. It will be Fri. before I get a chance to move them and start the copper--luckily they both look okay and are acting fine right now. I will try again to get some pictures but I'm not holding out much hope, he is just too fast and it is hard to see.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
If you go the copper route;
Cupermine over Coppersafe would be my choice, but I am partial to Seachem products.
I also think that the smaller size of the tank they are even now in will stress the tangs more giving rise to the ability of the parasite to "take over" the fish.
Have you been monitoring the Ph which will fall quickly as you lower the SG? (another possible stressor)
Spanko truism,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"hyposalinity is not for the faint at heart."
 
kiefers

kiefers

Active Member
the tang looks clear for now however, this is the same thing that took place in my MICU. the fish cleared up for awhile then the pygmy was covered over night. I kept a sharp look at the Ph as the salinity was 1.007.
She did get the sechem product but my concern is it's ionic which can be very toxic to the fish, and some day I want to be able to QT corals in the tank.
kiefers truism.............oh crap!....... again?
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Ah yes, the decisions were are confronted with in life. Two tangs in the hand < or > future QT tank in the bush????
 
mproctor4

mproctor4

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///forum/thread/385899/7-weeks-hypo-and-still-ick#post_3387239
How many spots are there? Are they completely round pinpoint dots?
The powder blue tang had about a dozen, white, round pinpoint dots on the fins and body. The yellow looks a little different, not as many as the powder blue. They started out white and pinpoint but as they are healing they have turned to a sand color. Where the first spots were, it just looks like a lighter yellow patch in the healing area. Today there are 2 new spots on the fins and one on the body. These are the first spots I have seen on the yellows fins. I tried again to get pictures, he never holds still and he is scared of the camera which makes it worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///forum/thread/385899/7-weeks-hypo-and-still-ick#post_3387244
If you go the copper route;
Cupermine over Coppersafe would be my choice, but I am partial to Seachem products.
I also think that the smaller size of the tank they are even now in will stress the tangs more giving rise to the ability of the parasite to "take over" the fish.
Have you been monitoring the Ph which will fall quickly as you lower the SG? (another possible stressor)
Spanko truism,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"hyposalinity is not for the faint at heart."
I actually got the Seachem Cupramine
I just got lucky because I was clueless. I knew I liked other Seachem products and went with it. The Ph did drop to 7.6 but has been holding steady around 8.0-8.2 since I dropped the salinity around 7 weeks ago. I understand what you are saying about the smaller tank, but part of the problem is that the biocube isn't mine. It belongs to hubbie and I don't want to render it useless for corals. Hubbie was using my QT for his MICU so I used his empty biocube. I foolishly did not anticipate the need for copper. So far, hypo appeared to work well for me. Now I am wondering how well it actually worked. Is it really gone on the other fish in my DT or have they just not shown any signs of it yet?? And the parasite drama continues....
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Is it really gone on the other fish in my DT........................me thinks not.
or have they just not shown any signs of it yet??..............me thinks so.
 
mproctor4

mproctor4

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///forum/thread/385899/7-weeks-hypo-and-still-ick#post_3387481
Is it really gone on the other fish in my DT........................me thinks not.
or have they just not shown any signs of it yet??..............me thinks so.
If it is in my DT, then what is the point of this? Why would I bother to hypo or copper when I'm gonna put them in a tank that has ick? I put my fish back in the DT that had been fallow for 8 weeks the end of Feb. and haven't seen any sign of ick at this point. The fish were in hypo for 6 weeks with no signs of ick after the initial spots were gone. I am praying that we are both wrong and it is not present in the DT. But I am afraid you may be right because I just don't trust hypo anymore. I'm just frustrated.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Oh perhaps I misunderstood then. If the tank was fallow and the fish look like the hypo worked then you should be good to go. I thought the tangs came out but the other fish were left in.
Sorry, did not mean to stress you!
 
mproctor4

mproctor4

Member
I do feel a little better, but fish currently in QT looked great too until the day I was ready to raise salinity. Sticking with the plan I guess, start copper Fri. when I'm home long enough to deal with it. How long do you think I should keep them in copper and then raise the salinity? I would hope after the copper is done, it is safe to raise the salinity but like Tang Rules said, it may be a good idea to keep them in hypo a bit longer
 
tangs rule

tangs rule

Active Member
IMO if the DT has been fallow for 7-8 weeks, it is almost impossible that any ich would remain (assuming nothing NEW from another lfs/unknown tank has been added).....free swimming stage ich only survives <48 hours, but it's the cyst stage that can lie dormant for ~28 days, then it's gotta hatch by then....after hatch the free swimmers would die without a red-blooded host to feed on within 2 days.
The only concern I'd say you have is the fish in qtine - and ensuring that they are clear....remember that ich & velvet parasites prefer attaching in the gills, where it's impossible to see them, and it only takes 1 to feed, drop off, cyst&multiply to begin the whole cycle over again. Typically when there's enough of the parasites to visually see on the skin/fins, there's even more that are IN the gills, doing damage. this is the cause of "fast respiration" seen during bad breakouts.
If you had a re-occurrence (like i did) after some weeks of hypo, I'd still lean toward a copper treatment for ~2 weeks, and if absolutely NO signs remain after the first few days, at week 2 or so totally breakdown the qtine tank, totally sterilize everything, replace 100% of the hypo water w/new same sg, and continue to monitor for another week or 2, then begin coming back up with sg over a week.
my research & reading on the subject: (quite boring)
There's some people that have a theory that there actually multiple strains of ich, varying through-out the worlds different oceans, and fish from say Tonga, have never experienced, nor have any natural immunity to ich from say the Caribbean, or Atlantic waters. And ich from different parts of the oceans has slightly different DNA, possibly making them more or less susceptible to various treatments....With these possible different strains, it would explain how some outbreaks are very severe and infest quickly, while other outbreaks are milder - with the more severe outbreaks being harder to control, as the fish are exposed to something they've never seen before....
Ich in the wild is kinda rare actually, with so many trillions of gallons flowing through even the most fish-full reefs, each ich & velvet parasite has to multiply 200+ times after feeding on a host to ensure survival of the psite species, with 99+% of the newborn free-swimmers dying prior to successfully feeding. It's almost impossible for a fish in the wild to become so infected that it dies from parasites, cause the natural concentration of the psites is so very low. But in the home tank, regardless of how big, the odds of each newborn parasite successfully feeding go up exponentially, and as much as 25-50% of the parasites will successfully feed&breed&multiply, causing psite population explosion in only a week or two.
And once a fish is caught in the wild, they spend WEEKS in various holding tanks (virtually ALL contaminated with something) while being transferred into the USA and finally showing up at the lfs or retailer (whose tanks aren't clear either)... By some counts fish from the waters around Indonesia or Australia may see a dozen separate tanks before winding up in the bag that you get - so the odds are HIGH there's at least something hitch-hiking on any new fish. And since so many retailers combine fish & inverts in the same system waters, intermixing of any strain of psite and fish is possible, and this is why some people get an ich outbreak, even though they only added a coral or shrimp, cause the water your new critter came in hot with some psite.
my 2 cents.
 
mproctor4

mproctor4

Member
Thank you both for your imput! My DT has actually been thru hypo/fallow twice now. I am not sure how the ick got back in the second time, maybe it wasn't ever really gone. It was either from a coral I put in that had not been QT or from a flame angle that was in QT for 6 weeks. I know how hard flames can been to keep so I didn't want to hypo or copper if I didn't have to. It looked perfect until the day after I put it in my DT. It had spots of ick on it for a few hours and then all evidence of it was gone. If I hadn't been watching closely or at work that day, I would have never known. Few weeks later it killed a powder blue tang I had added and I almost lost my established sailfin tang. I did an emergency hypo/fallow tank and all of the fish came thru with flying colors (including the flame angel). So now everything gets left in a fallow tank or treated before entereing the DT. Not going thru that again with the DT!!
I guess it does make sense that ick from different parts of the world respond to treatments differently.
 
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