7 weeks hypo and still ick!
- Thread starter mproctor4
- Start date
mproctor4
Member
Just an update. I am not convinced that this issue was ick. I've seen alot of ick over the years and nothing quite like this. I spent quite a bit of time reading on the internet and could never find anything that really described it or pictures that matched. Even my local fish guy was stumped. At first he was thinking it was the early stages of lymphocytosis, but it wasn't.
As it progressed it looked just like pimples that were ready to pop. Once the spot appeared it didn't come and go like ich sometimes does. There were not any small white dots--everyone looked like a pimple. After 3+ weeks of copper (and still hypo) the pimples have finally disappeared. The area where the spots were is dimpled and white (like healing tissue --not ick or parasites). Several of the spots appear to finally be healing a bit. I am slowly raising the salanity and am hoping in 2-3 weeks both tangs can be put in the DT if furthur improvement continues. The affected yellow tang acted completely normal and ate well through the entire process. It has actually grown alot in QT. The powder blue tang has looked perfect since his bout of ick the second week into hypo. (I am sure that was ick). Not really sure what to think, but things seems to be improving (knock on wood). I tried several times to get pictures but it just would not show up on the photos.
tangs rule
Active Member
WOW - you're a trooper for dealing with them as you have. I am glad to hear a good update on this - I know your ready to get them back into their DT and be done with this qtine garbage. I'd continue just as you are and take your time- - if it's been such a pain getting rid of the ich (and whatever else) it was in a medicated qtine tank - I'd not rush getting fish back into the DT for sure....Let whatever's lurking around in the DT die out but good. That's an awesome story of effort on your part for maintaining qtine as long as this - i know it's such a pain, and the only good thing about it is - it takes so little salt mix to make a batch of water for a qtine tank waterchange.
mproctor4
Member
Thanks for the encouragement. They have been in QT since the end of March!!! They have never been in the display. The display was fallow last fall for over 8 weeks while all the other fish were in hypo. I had great success with that (after the 2nd round or ick). These two tangs went straight from the LFS to the QT and didn't show any problems at all until week 2 of hypo. There are 3 reasons I am pushing to get them out of QT soon: 1) they have grown a ton and need more space 2) the yellow tang has the start of HLLE, I am sure it will clear up as soon as he is out of QT (happened to my sailfin too and all evidence of it was gone in 3 months). I just don't want it getting any worse 3) we leave on vacation in 4 1/2 weeks and I do not want to leave this for our housesitter. She has enough on her plate with all of our critters. I got some Selcon last night to add to the food--figured it couldn't hurt and I have been trying to bump up the water changes. Unless something unexpected happens, this is it for the fish, my tank is FULL. I'm sure I will want to add some more inverts and corals that will need QT, but that is simple compared to hypo and copper. Thanks everyone for the help. If they ever make it to the DT, I will post pictures!
BTW----I LOVE your Achilles---it is gorgeous. Our LFS had a 6" Achilles a couple weeks ago. They are hard to find around here. If I had a bigger tank, he would have came home with us. I'm hoping a 300 gallon will somehow just show up at our house in a year or so
. Gotta have a dream.
BTW----I LOVE your Achilles---it is gorgeous. Our LFS had a 6" Achilles a couple weeks ago. They are hard to find around here. If I had a bigger tank, he would have came home with us. I'm hoping a 300 gallon will somehow just show up at our house in a year or so
tangs rule
Active Member
Since these fish came from a LFS of yours, I'd qtine the heck out of anything else that comes from their tanks (inverts too). Selcon is great - I put couple drops in a teaspoon of water and soak my alage sheet in it for 5 minutes before putting in the DT for them to devour. I had a dream too of a large 200-300, but somebody smiled on me and it wound up being a 475.
spanko
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by mproctor4 http:///forum/thread/385899/7-weeks-hypo-and-still-ick/20#post_3393726
Wish we were close enough to see your 475, I would live vicariously thru you. Since I went about 4 years without a tank, I truely am happy with what I have. Didn't realize how much I missed it until we got it up again.
Seems to be the concensus, you miss it until you get it up again. At least I know I do!!!
Originally Posted by mproctor4 http:///forum/thread/385899/7-weeks-hypo-and-still-ick/20#post_3393726
Wish we were close enough to see your 475, I would live vicariously thru you. Since I went about 4 years without a tank, I truely am happy with what I have. Didn't realize how much I missed it until we got it up again.
Seems to be the concensus, you miss it until you get it up again. At least I know I do!!!
kiefers
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by mproctor4 http:///forum/thread/385899/7-weeks-hypo-and-still-ick/20#post_3393707
Thanks for the encouragement. They have been in QT since the end of March!!! They have never been in the display. The display was fallow last fall for over 8 weeks while all the other fish were in hypo. I had great success with that (after the 2nd round or ick). These two tangs went straight from the LFS to the QT and didn't show any problems at all until week 2 of hypo. There are 3 reasons I am pushing to get them out of QT soon: 1) they have grown a ton and need more space 2) the yellow tang has the start of HLLE, I am sure it will clear up as soon as he is out of QT (happened to my sailfin too and all evidence of it was gone in 3 months). I just don't want it getting any worse 3) we leave on vacation in 4 1/2 weeks and I do not want to leave this for our housesitter. She has enough on her plate with all of our critters. I got some Selcon last night to add to the food--figured it couldn't hurt and I have been trying to bump up the water changes. Unless something unexpected happens, this is it for the fish, my tank is FULL. I'm sure I will want to add some more inverts and corals that will need QT, but that is simple compared to hypo and copper. Thanks everyone for the help. If they ever make it to the DT, I will post pictures!
BTW----I LOVE your Achilles---it is gorgeous. Our LFS had a 6" Achilles a couple weeks ago. They are hard to find around here. If I had a bigger tank, he would have came home with us. I'm hoping a 300 gallon will somehow just show up at our house in a year or so
. Gotta have a dream.
My dream is to go to Disneyworld....... yes I said Disneyworld!!!
Originally Posted by mproctor4 http:///forum/thread/385899/7-weeks-hypo-and-still-ick/20#post_3393707
Thanks for the encouragement. They have been in QT since the end of March!!! They have never been in the display. The display was fallow last fall for over 8 weeks while all the other fish were in hypo. I had great success with that (after the 2nd round or ick). These two tangs went straight from the LFS to the QT and didn't show any problems at all until week 2 of hypo. There are 3 reasons I am pushing to get them out of QT soon: 1) they have grown a ton and need more space 2) the yellow tang has the start of HLLE, I am sure it will clear up as soon as he is out of QT (happened to my sailfin too and all evidence of it was gone in 3 months). I just don't want it getting any worse 3) we leave on vacation in 4 1/2 weeks and I do not want to leave this for our housesitter. She has enough on her plate with all of our critters. I got some Selcon last night to add to the food--figured it couldn't hurt and I have been trying to bump up the water changes. Unless something unexpected happens, this is it for the fish, my tank is FULL. I'm sure I will want to add some more inverts and corals that will need QT, but that is simple compared to hypo and copper. Thanks everyone for the help. If they ever make it to the DT, I will post pictures!
BTW----I LOVE your Achilles---it is gorgeous. Our LFS had a 6" Achilles a couple weeks ago. They are hard to find around here. If I had a bigger tank, he would have came home with us. I'm hoping a 300 gallon will somehow just show up at our house in a year or so
My dream is to go to Disneyworld....... yes I said Disneyworld!!!
mproctor4
Member
Kiefers---You have been to Disneyworld lots of times, with a trip in the works. We could buy a heck of a big tank with what a trip to Disney cost! We have the best of both worlds now, a decent size tank (multiple tanks for that matter) and a few nice vacations.
Spanko--You are right about that. I knew before I took my tank down I would miss it. The plan was to put it right back up. I took it down for painting and new carpet. It also needed some work so I decided that if I was going to spend that kind of money on it I might as well get a bigger tank. One thing after another, life got in the way. It got sold in a garage sale
Keith and I started dating soon after I took the the tank down so he hadn't ever really experienced it. He knew how much I missed the it and we found my current tank on a whim. We have a yearly competition to see who can save the most coins. We use the money as spending money on vacation or plane tickets to DISNEYWORLD. He was generous enough to donate his coins to the tank. Between the two of us we had exactly enough to buy the tank and stand. It took a few more coins to buy the rest of the equipment. It wasn't long and he was as hooked as I was. It is so nice to have a spouse that enjoys the hobby rather than barely tolerates it (been there, done that). It is amazing how much time we spend together working on the tanks, visiting our local fish guy, and scouring the beach for critters on vacations.
The scary part about the ears in Kiefers post above.....he has some just like it with his name on the back He wears them the ENTIRE time we are there, even if the kids aren't with us. I love Disney, but draw the line at the ears. I will be in trouble for tattling. He definitely has the magic
Spanko--You are right about that. I knew before I took my tank down I would miss it. The plan was to put it right back up. I took it down for painting and new carpet. It also needed some work so I decided that if I was going to spend that kind of money on it I might as well get a bigger tank. One thing after another, life got in the way. It got sold in a garage sale
The scary part about the ears in Kiefers post above.....he has some just like it with his name on the back He wears them the ENTIRE time we are there, even if the kids aren't with us. I love Disney, but draw the line at the ears. I will be in trouble for tattling. He definitely has the magic
mproctor4
Member
A few of the spots are back! I don't know what else I should be doing for them, especially since I don't even know what it is. I was wrong about the date I started hypo. After checking my journal, hypo started 4/10 and copper was 3 or 4 weeks ago (I forgot to write that date down). I had great hopes one of the two would kill whatever this is. I really want to put the powder blue tang in my DT. He hasn't shown one sign of any illness in a couple of months but I am really afraid it could be carrying something. HELP. Any ideas anyone?
Unfortunately I work a ton the next few days so won't be able to try anything new for a few days, but I'm willing to try just about anything. Hubbie suggested maybe a freshwater dip but I am really afraid to do that since he acts normal and eats well. I hate freshwater dips and only want to do that as a last resort. Do you think this might help?
Unfortunately I work a ton the next few days so won't be able to try anything new for a few days, but I'm willing to try just about anything. Hubbie suggested maybe a freshwater dip but I am really afraid to do that since he acts normal and eats well. I hate freshwater dips and only want to do that as a last resort. Do you think this might help?
tangs rule
Active Member
Are you sure there is no sand he could have laid in? What is the SG of the qtine tank? What type of copper are u using, what test kit, and what level are you running copper at?
I'm NOT a fan of the FWD (fresh water dip) Ich "digs" in or burrows into the fishes skin and a FWD only affects the surface. For that matter formalin/copper dips are not very affective - only in SEVERE infestations - where the fish will likely die unless some of the ich (especially in gills) dies off.
My PB tang sometimes has little specs on him that look suspicious. But since i know the DT's are clear - I pay little attention.
If your 100+ sure it's ich, I've got some ideas. But it will require time, another filter cartridge, 100% water change.
I'm NOT a fan of the FWD (fresh water dip) Ich "digs" in or burrows into the fishes skin and a FWD only affects the surface. For that matter formalin/copper dips are not very affective - only in SEVERE infestations - where the fish will likely die unless some of the ich (especially in gills) dies off.
My PB tang sometimes has little specs on him that look suspicious. But since i know the DT's are clear - I pay little attention.
If your 100+ sure it's ich, I've got some ideas. But it will require time, another filter cartridge, 100% water change.
kiefers
Active Member
There is no sand in this tank. the salinity is 1.015 and a water change was done on monday. We are unsure as to what this Tangs problem is. She/he behaves normally and just now while getting pics noticed it was scratching (just now noticed for the first time)
Copper, well she will have to tell you that.... I'm unsure. Last time I checked it was between 1.5 to 2. (using an API test. the copper being used is the Mardel copper safe brand and you can test with the API, as stated on the box. I don't want to use the ionic because it is my 29 bio cube and I have plans for this system later on and it involves certain coral. The Y/T looks okay now but later may look bad. The first pic is Doc.... the PB, nothing is on this fish but we are concerned that it may be a carrier. As you can see, the pitting on the y/t.
Copper, well she will have to tell you that.... I'm unsure. Last time I checked it was between 1.5 to 2. (using an API test. the copper being used is the Mardel copper safe brand and you can test with the API, as stated on the box. I don't want to use the ionic because it is my 29 bio cube and I have plans for this system later on and it involves certain coral. The Y/T looks okay now but later may look bad. The first pic is Doc.... the PB, nothing is on this fish but we are concerned that it may be a carrier. As you can see, the pitting on the y/t.
tangs rule
Active Member
Try feeding that YT some more - his belly is kinda pinched - they could likely both use a little more grub. frozen mysis, marine cuisine, formula 2, Rods food - and if you have any selcon, put a couple drops in one teaspoon of water and soak some purple or green nori in that for 5 min before feeding to them. The pits in the YT look like some HLLE - but that could be attributed to stress in qtine so long.
Well - the 1st I'd do is drop that sg back down to 1.008, in 3 events, about 12 hours apart. Remove enough QT water and add straight RO/DI with a tiny bit of buffer in it to keep the PH up. I suggest dropping it once in the AM, again in the PM and finally the last morining. Test PH once per day during salinity change, from then check PH every 2-3 days. (refractometer required to accuratly set sg)
2nd, raise that copper level by .5-1 ppm as soon as the tank is at 1.009 MAX, 1.008 better. It's gonna be a requirement that these 2 steps are done ASAP - and accomplished within 36-48 hours. DO NOT come down with SG slower than suggested, as ich has a tendency to survive the next "hatch" at a lower SG than the previous one could, and it only takes one or 2 to successfully feed to continue the entire life-cycle...Qtine tank temp should be 78-80, and not much hotter.
Continue this treatment plan for about 1 week, then you must be ready for a big maintenance event on the QT. What's gonna happen about 7 days AFTER the sg is at 1.008 AND the copper has been at 3ppm will require a total breakdown and reset of the tank, fish in buckets for a little while, stearlization of the entire qtine tank/filter/powerheads/PVC/heater/etc with HOT tap water. A 100% waterchange, with new sw at the previous tank SG, and replacement of the copper at previous level, new filter media, etc. (this event will eliminate ANY/ALL cysted ich, and is the first of 2 similar events) I'll provide exact details on the next segment of treatment later on.
Well - the 1st I'd do is drop that sg back down to 1.008, in 3 events, about 12 hours apart. Remove enough QT water and add straight RO/DI with a tiny bit of buffer in it to keep the PH up. I suggest dropping it once in the AM, again in the PM and finally the last morining. Test PH once per day during salinity change, from then check PH every 2-3 days. (refractometer required to accuratly set sg)
2nd, raise that copper level by .5-1 ppm as soon as the tank is at 1.009 MAX, 1.008 better. It's gonna be a requirement that these 2 steps are done ASAP - and accomplished within 36-48 hours. DO NOT come down with SG slower than suggested, as ich has a tendency to survive the next "hatch" at a lower SG than the previous one could, and it only takes one or 2 to successfully feed to continue the entire life-cycle...Qtine tank temp should be 78-80, and not much hotter.
Continue this treatment plan for about 1 week, then you must be ready for a big maintenance event on the QT. What's gonna happen about 7 days AFTER the sg is at 1.008 AND the copper has been at 3ppm will require a total breakdown and reset of the tank, fish in buckets for a little while, stearlization of the entire qtine tank/filter/powerheads/PVC/heater/etc with HOT tap water. A 100% waterchange, with new sw at the previous tank SG, and replacement of the copper at previous level, new filter media, etc. (this event will eliminate ANY/ALL cysted ich, and is the first of 2 similar events) I'll provide exact details on the next segment of treatment later on.
mproctor4
Member
Tang Rules-- Let me start off by saying that I do really appreciate your help. I have just put in a long, emotional day at work and get to repeat the fun again in the morning, so please forgive me if I am a bit blunt. The tank has had the salinity at 1.007 from 4/15-until 5 days ago when I slowly started bring the salinity up. In that time period the salinity never got above 1.008. The copper has been <3 for almost 4 weeks now. The temp. is always between 78-79. The reason the copper level is that high is because I was holding the test strip up next to the card to read the level rather than holding it perpendicular to the card and looking down on the tube (as hubbie pointed out to me that the directions clearly said to do this). The level wasn't coming up, so I just kept adding copper (smart, I know) Luckily they have survived it.
The reason I haven't posted pictures so far is because it is impossible to see the details of the "spots" I am talking about (hubbie posted the pictures and I appreciate the thought, but you CAN NOT see it in the photos). I know in the first picture the tang looks like it has a pinched belly. In person, I have never seen a pinched belly on either one of them. Hubbie said he took the pictures before they were fed in the morning, even with that in mind, I have never seen their belly sunk in
--Shadow maybe. They are feed 2-3 times a day and usually have algae strips available to them. I bought some selcon a few days ago and have soaked algae strips and put it in there food. We do use the foods you mentioned (except the Rod's) + emerald entree frozen and also make our own blend out of homemade food--they get both and eat very well. I have not taken the tank apart and sterilized it. I will have to think about that....right now I'm just too tired to even remotely consider it, but may have a change of heart.
I hate it when people ask for advice and the argue about it. But here I am......I really don't think it is ick, at least not any ick I've ever seen in over 25 years of keeping fish. In the beginning it did, but after watching the entire cycle it just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it is a different strand of ick then I have ever seen??? The YT does have HLLE, but alot of the spots that you see in the photo are where the cyst like whatever they are have fallen off the tang. It has actually left little craters in his side, it is ulcerated tissue that is healing--that I do know, I'm a nurse and see it everyday. The best way I can think to describe it is like something is coming from it's tissue and working its way out of it's skin. Like a fluke, but I never see anything come out, the spot is just gone. In the very beginning it looks like a mosquito bite (or bump from an early pimple), just a round swollen area under the tissue for a few days, about the size of a BB. Then it looks like a large piece of brown sand on top of the bump for a few days, then for about 2 weeks it looks like a zit that is about to pop (like it is full of white puss), then it is gone and leaves a hole in his skin with white, healing tissue underneath. Ick seems to come and go different time of the day, stress levels, etc. This is a constant spot, follows the above cycle. Also there have never been spots on the fins or eyes at all, with ick usually their fins and eyes are covered.
Do you really think it could be ick? I have been leaning more toward the thought of it might need an antibiotic? But honestly, I'm just grasping here.
The reason I haven't posted pictures so far is because it is impossible to see the details of the "spots" I am talking about (hubbie posted the pictures and I appreciate the thought, but you CAN NOT see it in the photos). I know in the first picture the tang looks like it has a pinched belly. In person, I have never seen a pinched belly on either one of them. Hubbie said he took the pictures before they were fed in the morning, even with that in mind, I have never seen their belly sunk in
I hate it when people ask for advice and the argue about it. But here I am......I really don't think it is ick, at least not any ick I've ever seen in over 25 years of keeping fish. In the beginning it did, but after watching the entire cycle it just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it is a different strand of ick then I have ever seen??? The YT does have HLLE, but alot of the spots that you see in the photo are where the cyst like whatever they are have fallen off the tang. It has actually left little craters in his side, it is ulcerated tissue that is healing--that I do know, I'm a nurse and see it everyday. The best way I can think to describe it is like something is coming from it's tissue and working its way out of it's skin. Like a fluke, but I never see anything come out, the spot is just gone. In the very beginning it looks like a mosquito bite (or bump from an early pimple), just a round swollen area under the tissue for a few days, about the size of a BB. Then it looks like a large piece of brown sand on top of the bump for a few days, then for about 2 weeks it looks like a zit that is about to pop (like it is full of white puss), then it is gone and leaves a hole in his skin with white, healing tissue underneath. Ick seems to come and go different time of the day, stress levels, etc. This is a constant spot, follows the above cycle. Also there have never been spots on the fins or eyes at all, with ick usually their fins and eyes are covered.
Do you really think it could be ick? I have been leaning more toward the thought of it might need an antibiotic? But honestly, I'm just grasping here.
spanko
Active Member
Just some more info on the parasite.
First the guy posting.
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/45723-lees-bio-k-leebca.html
Then his articles
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/57175-fish-white-spots-went-away.html
.http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/52236-curing-fish-marine-ich.html
First the guy posting.
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/45723-lees-bio-k-leebca.html
Then his articles
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/57175-fish-white-spots-went-away.html
.http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/52236-curing-fish-marine-ich.html
kiefers
Active Member
Hi Henry. Like the Lee's statements in the beginning posts, we to are tired of this parasite, VERY TIRED. Basically told us everything you have (you smart bugar you). However.......Lee did post what I thought to be correct but others told us to do. See quote below.
11." NEVER combine a copper treatment with a hyposalinity treatment. In hyposaline solutions it is hard to control pH. When pH fluctuates (down) the copper present can be lethal to marine fishes. When using certain complexed copper medications, like Cupramine, the two can be used together with greater safety. However I strongly advise even doing this. During a hyposalinity treatment, it is hard to control the pH. The buffering ability of the water is very weak, so pH shifts are very easy. In the presence of a copper medication, a sudden drop in pH can cause copper poisoning to the fish. BOTH the copper and hyposalinity treatment poses some stress to the fish. Should they have to endur both? Just choose one and do it properly. Follow the process to make the determination on the way you want to treat the infected fish, found here: Curing Fish of Marine Ich"
Believe me when I say that I am a firm believer in kicking bacteria, viruses,(well most viral infections must die on it's own) or even ich in the arss but doing this double whammy on the marine life I believe is just to stressful. And thus far in our experience, causing more damage than good. The wife's yellow tank has had 1 or 2 bacterial infections since hypo and copper TX, and now I am very unsure like her if this is ich at all. Does ich leave a pot hole in the skin when it detaches from the fish? None that I have ever seen. I know the tank may magnify images but this pot hole in the skin measures close to 1-1.5 mm in diameter. nonetheless, y'all are the experts and know what your talking about. If anything you supplied us with more reading on the subject, and I did read it. (Lol...) You just have to understand and feel our frustrations as this parasite has worn us both down. She has lost fish and I have lost ALL mine do to this devil and just now getting new critters for the Atlantis. So when it may sound like we are getting pissy, it's not at the posters giving us the advice, but the damn parasite involved.
Have a safe and wonderful 4th!
11." NEVER combine a copper treatment with a hyposalinity treatment. In hyposaline solutions it is hard to control pH. When pH fluctuates (down) the copper present can be lethal to marine fishes. When using certain complexed copper medications, like Cupramine, the two can be used together with greater safety. However I strongly advise even doing this. During a hyposalinity treatment, it is hard to control the pH. The buffering ability of the water is very weak, so pH shifts are very easy. In the presence of a copper medication, a sudden drop in pH can cause copper poisoning to the fish. BOTH the copper and hyposalinity treatment poses some stress to the fish. Should they have to endur both? Just choose one and do it properly. Follow the process to make the determination on the way you want to treat the infected fish, found here: Curing Fish of Marine Ich"
Believe me when I say that I am a firm believer in kicking bacteria, viruses,(well most viral infections must die on it's own) or even ich in the arss but doing this double whammy on the marine life I believe is just to stressful. And thus far in our experience, causing more damage than good. The wife's yellow tank has had 1 or 2 bacterial infections since hypo and copper TX, and now I am very unsure like her if this is ich at all. Does ich leave a pot hole in the skin when it detaches from the fish? None that I have ever seen. I know the tank may magnify images but this pot hole in the skin measures close to 1-1.5 mm in diameter. nonetheless, y'all are the experts and know what your talking about. If anything you supplied us with more reading on the subject, and I did read it. (Lol...) You just have to understand and feel our frustrations as this parasite has worn us both down. She has lost fish and I have lost ALL mine do to this devil and just now getting new critters for the Atlantis. So when it may sound like we are getting pissy, it's not at the posters giving us the advice, but the damn parasite involved.
Have a safe and wonderful 4th!
tangs rule
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiefers http:///forum/thread/385899/7-weeks-hypo-and-still-ick/20#post_3395178
Hi Henry. Like the Lee's statements in the beginning posts, we to are tired of this parasite, VERY TIRED. Basically told us everything you have (you smart bugar you). However.......Lee did post what I thought to be correct but others told us to do. See quote below.
11." NEVER combine a copper treatment with a hyposalinity treatment. In hyposaline solutions it is hard to control pH. When pH fluctuates (down) the copper present can be lethal to marine fishes. When using certain complexed copper medications, like Cupramine, the two can be used together with greater safety. However I strongly advise even doing this. During a hyposalinity treatment, it is hard to control the pH. The buffering ability of the water is very weak, so pH shifts are very easy. In the presence of a copper medication, a sudden drop in pH can cause copper poisoning to the fish. BOTH the copper and hyposalinity treatment poses some stress to the fish. Should they have to endur both? Just choose one and do it properly. Follow the process to make the determination on the way you want to treat the infected fish, found here: Curing Fish of Marine Ich"
Believe me when I say that I am a firm believer in kicking bacteria, viruses,(well most viral infections must die on it's own) or even ich in the arss but doing this double whammy on the marine life I believe is just to stressful. And thus far in our experience, causing more damage than good. The wife's yellow tank has had 1 or 2 bacterial infections since hypo and copper TX, and now I am very unsure like her if this is ich at all. Does ich leave a pot hole in the skin when it detaches from the fish? None that I have ever seen. I know the tank may magnify images but this pot hole in the skin measures close to 1-1.5 mm in diameter. nonetheless, y'all are the experts and know what your talking about. If anything you supplied us with more reading on the subject, and I did read it. (Lol...) You just have to understand and feel our frustrations as this parasite has worn us both down. She has lost fish and I have lost ALL mine do to this devil and just now getting new critters for the Atlantis. So when it may sound like we are getting pissy, it's not at the posters giving us the advice, but the damn parasite involved.
Have a safe and wonderful 4th!
1. it helps to properly identify the ailment. If your treating for ich, when some other malaise is present you're wasting time and fish lives.
2. If your performing hypo OR copper, and several weeks into the process you see A RECOURRANCE of ich and positivly identify it as so - WTF are you supposed to do - piss in the qtine tank? pray? I had a full ich comeback on my last qtine batch that had been in hypo for 3 weeks. and daily, i was seeing MORE not less, so I combined copper with the hypo. Majically, it did not kill my fish, and the navarchus angle AND orange shoulder tang AND blenny AND others survived. This was not the first time in the decade i've been doing this, that during the first treatment regimine, the parasite returned, requiring combining methods.
3. I can post links to articles that say just the opposite of what this character has calimed in the quote that you posted. That combining or "double whammy" approach is SOMETIMES required to do the trick, when ONE tratment alone either fails, OR allows a return of the parasite. Opinions are like noses, everyones got one and some are bigger than others.
4. I guess you have to make a choice, in the end. Allow the fish to die due to ich or velvet, which is a very high probablity, OR try combonations of treatment methods, AFTER SOME INTERNET RESEARCH - and at least try to save the fishes life. But in the end - do what you want, it's your money .
Originally Posted by Kiefers http:///forum/thread/385899/7-weeks-hypo-and-still-ick/20#post_3395178
Hi Henry. Like the Lee's statements in the beginning posts, we to are tired of this parasite, VERY TIRED. Basically told us everything you have (you smart bugar you). However.......Lee did post what I thought to be correct but others told us to do. See quote below.
11." NEVER combine a copper treatment with a hyposalinity treatment. In hyposaline solutions it is hard to control pH. When pH fluctuates (down) the copper present can be lethal to marine fishes. When using certain complexed copper medications, like Cupramine, the two can be used together with greater safety. However I strongly advise even doing this. During a hyposalinity treatment, it is hard to control the pH. The buffering ability of the water is very weak, so pH shifts are very easy. In the presence of a copper medication, a sudden drop in pH can cause copper poisoning to the fish. BOTH the copper and hyposalinity treatment poses some stress to the fish. Should they have to endur both? Just choose one and do it properly. Follow the process to make the determination on the way you want to treat the infected fish, found here: Curing Fish of Marine Ich"
Believe me when I say that I am a firm believer in kicking bacteria, viruses,(well most viral infections must die on it's own) or even ich in the arss but doing this double whammy on the marine life I believe is just to stressful. And thus far in our experience, causing more damage than good. The wife's yellow tank has had 1 or 2 bacterial infections since hypo and copper TX, and now I am very unsure like her if this is ich at all. Does ich leave a pot hole in the skin when it detaches from the fish? None that I have ever seen. I know the tank may magnify images but this pot hole in the skin measures close to 1-1.5 mm in diameter. nonetheless, y'all are the experts and know what your talking about. If anything you supplied us with more reading on the subject, and I did read it. (Lol...) You just have to understand and feel our frustrations as this parasite has worn us both down. She has lost fish and I have lost ALL mine do to this devil and just now getting new critters for the Atlantis. So when it may sound like we are getting pissy, it's not at the posters giving us the advice, but the damn parasite involved.
Have a safe and wonderful 4th!
1. it helps to properly identify the ailment. If your treating for ich, when some other malaise is present you're wasting time and fish lives.
2. If your performing hypo OR copper, and several weeks into the process you see A RECOURRANCE of ich and positivly identify it as so - WTF are you supposed to do - piss in the qtine tank? pray? I had a full ich comeback on my last qtine batch that had been in hypo for 3 weeks. and daily, i was seeing MORE not less, so I combined copper with the hypo. Majically, it did not kill my fish, and the navarchus angle AND orange shoulder tang AND blenny AND others survived. This was not the first time in the decade i've been doing this, that during the first treatment regimine, the parasite returned, requiring combining methods.
3. I can post links to articles that say just the opposite of what this character has calimed in the quote that you posted. That combining or "double whammy" approach is SOMETIMES required to do the trick, when ONE tratment alone either fails, OR allows a return of the parasite. Opinions are like noses, everyones got one and some are bigger than others.
4. I guess you have to make a choice, in the end. Allow the fish to die due to ich or velvet, which is a very high probablity, OR try combonations of treatment methods, AFTER SOME INTERNET RESEARCH - and at least try to save the fishes life. But in the end - do what you want, it's your money .
kiefers
Active Member
I totally agree with you and everyone else that has posted on this topic. REALLY!! And yes, if it would have helped, I would have pissed in the darn tank. (Lol... kinda gross)
I know it's frustrating to the reader too. And believe me when I say this now..... Everyone and you, have given excellent advice and has been there from the start of this thread. It's not y'all were frustrated with it's parasite.
My wife is currently doing both copper and hypo and the tangs are swimming, dodging, eating (like pigs) poopin alot. and coming to the front to see everyone. Not breathing hard or anything. totally normal Tangs. Hense the confusion and my poor wife is emotionally exausted from this but she has taken the challenge and keeping up with it.
So, I guess we should be thanking you and others for being the ones she/ and I vent off to. Thank you and pls be patient with us and our sicky tang.
I know it's frustrating to the reader too. And believe me when I say this now..... Everyone and you, have given excellent advice and has been there from the start of this thread. It's not y'all were frustrated with it's parasite.
My wife is currently doing both copper and hypo and the tangs are swimming, dodging, eating (like pigs) poopin alot. and coming to the front to see everyone. Not breathing hard or anything. totally normal Tangs. Hense the confusion and my poor wife is emotionally exausted from this but she has taken the challenge and keeping up with it.
So, I guess we should be thanking you and others for being the ones she/ and I vent off to. Thank you and pls be patient with us and our sicky tang.
spanko
Active Member
Okay, so is there an ich infection and by that I mean can you see the teel tale signs in a bunch of white spots over the fish, with a mag glass or 10x loop inside or around the gills? Or are these pimples just a random rare occurance?
Where the hell is Beth????
Depending on the answers you give to the above two questions I will tell you what I would do. May not be the real answer or even one you will give any thinking too but I will wade in non-the-less.
Tangs rule, this "character" seems to have some pretty extensive background here. Maybe take a moment to read his bio here, then do an internets search if still curious about his credentials.
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/45723-lees-bio-k-leebca.html
Where the hell is Beth????
Depending on the answers you give to the above two questions I will tell you what I would do. May not be the real answer or even one you will give any thinking too but I will wade in non-the-less.
Tangs rule, this "character" seems to have some pretty extensive background here. Maybe take a moment to read his bio here, then do an internets search if still curious about his credentials.
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/45723-lees-bio-k-leebca.html