90 Gallon Sump/Overflow HELP!

[benihuma]

I need help. I have a 90 fowlr/ls aggressive, and I am going to add a hob overflow and sump. I will probably use a 30-40 gallon tank for the sump, but my questions are with the overflow and return pump.
1. how many gph should my overflow be? (i'm considerind a cpr model)
2. how many gph should my return pump be?
3. what kind of plumbing do you recommend? (piping vs. tubing, ball valves?)
4. what do you think of those pre-made sumps with the blue bioballs and such?
Thanks for the help!
ben

 

[mikegronholz]

I use a dual outlet 1" overflow box. I only run 1 siphon tube though. That puts as much water in my sump as my Mag 5 can pump out at full steam to 6' (about 300gph). Hope that helps.
Oh, BTW, I use PVC with ball valves.

 

[heyoo]

I've got 3 tanks running with hang-on overflows. I did some research before getting one, and I didn't have to look far to find out that most people that own CPR overflows HATE them. The thing with those is that they require you to connect an airline between the siphon channel and a powerhead to maintain flow. Lots of people say that if the power goes out, and the powerhead fails to restart when power is restored... the siphon simply doesn't restart - and then the contents of the sump are pumped upstairs to the tank. Talk about overflow... that'll teach you the true definition of overflow.
A lot of people like the style of overflow box sold at Lifereef. I've got one that is made like theirs. My other two are the really cheapie kind that come with amiracle, aquaclear, etc sumps. Its really basic - but I've never had one fail. They don't require any powerheads or anything. They all come with a sponge prefilter in the back part of the filter box. I'd take that out. It will be a little louder, but there will never be any flow restriction. If you choose to leave it, be sure to rinse it really well about once a week.
I'm using a rio 3100 for the return pump on my 90. Its been running for about 2 years now, so in Rio-years, its a senior citizen. When (not if, but when) it fails I'll be replacing it with either a mag 9.5 or a 12. Mine is a reef, so I'll probably opt for a little higher water flow.
For the 90, I'd shoot for about 700gph flow on the overflow and the return pump. I've got flexible vinyl tubes, and I've got PVC. I can't really tell much difference, but I do get some weird Tim Taylor (argh argh) satisfaction about doing it up right with PVC. But there certainly is nothing wrong with flexible lines.
The sumps with Bio balls are ok. However, since you're putting in liverock (hopefully to the tune of ~1lb/gal) you don't need the bio balls. IF you go that way, keep in mind you'll want to rinse them about once a year. I think you'd be better off with the berlin style sump with a filter sock and a skimmer.
Since you're going with the aggressive tank, you'll probably have some larger messier fish - and therefore elevated nitrates. Consider building a refugium under your tank. Drop in some miracle mud (or a cheaper knock-off) and some macroalgae, and you'll have a killer filtration system.
I hope that helps.
Heyoo.

 

[benihuma]

Heyoo, thanks for the advice. my tank is already established and has been up and running for about 2 years. my current filtration is a dsb, live rock, skimmer, and emperor 400. i've had problems with nitrates since the beginning, hence the sump idea. that and the fact that it would be nice to hide the heater and skimmer below the main tank. thanks again for your advice.
ben

 

[benihuma]

What return pump brand would you recommend, and what gph if i go with the lifereef 700 gph? thanks.
ben

 

[heyoo]

I'd go with a MAG if you want a submersible. If not, just compare the external pumps for your application. The efficiency curves for most brands are available online. Look at those - as well as the rated current at full load. Remember... more amps = more cost to operate!
Good luck

 

[benihuma]

i purchased a magdrive 1200, that should be adequate to both return to tank and refugium, right?

 

[heyoo]

Originally posted by benihuma
i purchased a magdrive 1200, that should be adequate to both return to tank and refugium, right?
Uhhhh....Yeah. Thats a monster.
I don't know if you've got a plan yet, but here's one I set up over christmas break. Its under a 55, but you get the point. If I were to set this up under a 90, I'd think the 1200 would work great.

 

[benihuma]

but i am going to have a lifereef dual overflow rated at like 1400 gph, and the sump/refuge setup is like this. they are separate, with the sump return feeding the refuge, controlled by a ball valve, and the remainder of the return going to the tank. the refuge will then drain into the sump. i'm basically copying broomers plan, but not having two pumps, just one.

 

[heyoo]

Yep - in the photo above, I've just got one Mag5 for the return pump. The refugium is fed off that line as well.
If you read up on Leng Sy's Eco-System method, you'll notice that he recommends very high flow through the refugium. The last 4 or 5 issues of FAMA did a pretty good job of explaining the theory. With a true eco-system setup (miracle mud and all), they say you shouldn't have substrate in your tank. You have a high flow rate, and no prefilters, and thus the detritus, nutrients, etc will stay in suspension. That way the filter-feeding inverts get a constant supply of food, and the refugium would be the primary place stuff would settle. They say when that is set up by the book, there will be a constant suspension of marine snow in the water. I chose not to go that route. I even used a skimmer, even though the experts claim you don't need one.
Good luck with your setup.

 

[benihuma]

so is my 1200 going to be too much? what if i also use that pump to run my skimmer in the sump? also, i could have a spraybar at the top of the display tank for surface aggitation, and a spraybar closer to the bottom to stir up waste. would those be feasible ways of breaking up all that pump force?

 

[benihuma]

thanks for the advice. with one spray bar low in the tank, i don't think i'd have power outage problems as long as i drilled a hole in the tubing near the surface which would break the siphon in the event of an outage. i'm not sure what the problem would be with the skimmer in the sump. please clarify.

 

[broncofish]

A little off topic but heyoo, that looks pretty nice. I have similar setup under my tank, but no where near as nice. Did you actually have the 10g tanks drilled, if so what did that cost.

 

[heyoo]

Yep - I had the 10 drilled. My LFS did it for $20. I know of a glass shop in town that does it for $15, but I decided to save time and money and get the tank and have it drilled at one stop.
I've looked for a mini drill press to do my own - and I know of a guy on another board who says he's drilled 10's with a hand drill and some patience. However, those little drill presses will cost $500 or so, and I don't have the guts to drill my own. I figure $20 isn't so bad for a hole once in a while.
If you do the same thing, consider adding a second drain hole - or do what I'm going to do, which is add a tee and an elbow pointing up. That way if the normal-level drain path is plugged, the level will rise up to the elbow and resume draining, so that the refugium doesn't overflow.
Then again you could always drill and tap a hole in the return pipe, and run 1/4" tubing and a float valve to the refugium. No possibility of overflowing there.
I could give myself a headache designing and redesigning these things.

 

[broncofish]

Thanks for the info, I think I am going to get a ten drilled, I could always do it an a rubbermade myself, but my son loves checking out the fuge