A letter that tells it straight.

[darthtang aw]

This was written to a member in the French Government.
Dear Mr. Montebourg:
Goodyear tried for over four years to save part of the Amiens jobs that are some of the highest paid, but the French unions and French government did nothing but talk.
I have visited the factory a couple of times. The French workforce gets paid high wages but works only three hours. They get one hour for breaks and lunch, talk for three, and work for three. I told this to the French union workers to their faces. They told me that's the French way!
The Chinese are shipping tires into France - really all over Europe - and yet you do nothing. In five years, Michelin won't be able to produce tire in France. France will lose its industrial business because government is more government.
Sir, your letter states you want Titan to start a discussion. How stupid do you think we are? Titan is the one with money and talent to produce tires. What does the crazy union have? It has the French government. The French farmer wants cheap tire. He does not care if the tires are from China or India and governments are subsidizing them. Your government doesn't care either. "We're French!"
The US government is not much better than the French. Titan had to pay millions to Washington lawyers to sue the Chinese tire companies because of their subsidizing. Titan won. The government collects the duties. We don't get the duties, the government does.
Titan is going to buy a Chinese tire company or an Indian one, pay less than one Euro per hour and ship all the tires France needs. You can keep the so-called workers. Titan has no interest in the Amien North factory.
Best regards,
Maurice M. Taylor, Jr.
Chairman and CEO

 

[beth]

That doesn't sound like something a CEO would write. I'm sure he may have felt that way, but there is no win to mouth off about it. Where did it come from?

 

[darthtang aw]

ItThat doesn't sound like something a CEO would write.  I'm sure he may have felt that way, but there is no win to mouth off about it.  Where did it come from?
has been reported on in various news and political opinion editorials. Google it. It is real!

 

[reefraff]

http://www.ibtimes.com/us-tire-maker-titan-international-ceo-maurice-taylor-derides-french-workers-lazy-putting-three-hours
We need CEO's to start telling their stories in this country too.

 

[beth]

Quote:
Titan is going to buy a Chinese tire company or an Indian one, pay less than one Euro per hour and ship all the tires France needs. You can keep the so-called workers. Titan has no interest in the Amien North factory.
Best regards,
Maurice M. Taylor, Jr.
Chairman and CEO
This is the bottom line here. No matter if USA or Europe has or does not have union employees, the Western workforce can not compete with the indentured servitude workforce available in China and India.

 

[geoj]

This is the bottom line here.  No matter if USA or Europe has or does not have union employees, the Western workforce  can not compete with the indentured servitude workforce available in China and India.
If you take into account a company's profits/currency before the USA became a socialist society (USSA). Company's that were heavily based in the USA out preformed the rest of the world, hands down. Their employees made more money and live a happier life, the products and services were in the highest demand. Now that we are socialist the supply and demand flow is changing. This means low income jobs are on the rise here in the USSA, and high income jobs are leaving to China with the company's investment money.

 

[beth]

This country's political and social-economic policies are by far not the only factors here. Manufacturing and industries were based in this country because the extremely cheap labor force abroad was not available as it is now. Companies are going to flow where the bottom line is best for them. That is capitalism. No one in the USA can work for $200 a month. But, that is changing as well. Expect the cheapo stuff we get from China to go up as do wages in China.
This CEO even boasts of buying a tire co. in China and India.

 

[reefraff]

The cost of business in China is steadily rising. We can compete if we are smart about how we do it. Too much to ask I fear but maybe. Simplifying the tax and regulatory system would go a long way toward that goal and wouldn't cost the feds a dime, in fact they would save money but not being able to use the tax code to bribe people, or the regulatory system to keep them in line goes against the DC way of life.

 

[beth]

I wonder if this CEO worried at all about people not buying tires from his company anymore based on comments. He basically trashed France, the USA and said he will be buying a plant in either China or India (where he can use exploitive measures for gain).
Sorry, guys, I'm not a liberal, but I am surprised that a CEO, regardless of his personal opinion, would put such to pen. Everything he said may well be true, but what good comes from a CEO to lecture a country? Not buying the company is a strong enough message, if you ask me.

 

[darthtang aw]

I wonder if this CEO worried at all about people not buying tires from his company anymore based on comments.  He basically trashed France, the USA and said he will be buying a plant in either China or India (where he can use exploitive measures for gain).
Sorry, guys, I'm not a liberal, but I am surprised that a CEO, regardless of his personal opinion, would put such to pen.  Everything he said may well be true, but what good comes from a CEO to lecture a country?  Not buying the company is a strong enough message, if you ask me.
85% of the population doesnt pay attention. We have a business here that refuses to meet the new city minimum wage. The news has been broadcasting it, and there have been protests out front. The business has actually increased sales since the bad coverage....

 

[beth]

I didn't know that a city could impose a min wage independent of the fed. standard.

 

[darthtang aw]

I didn't know that a city could impose a min wage independent of the fed. standard.
New Mexico has several metropolitan areas that operate under home law. As long as their laws do NOT contradict the constitution or the state constitution..they can pass whatever. The minimum wage was raised above the fed level in Santa Fe and later New Mexico before the feds raised it. Albuquerque just raised it to 8.50....higher than the state level. They put the bill on the ballot for the public to decide................because our councilmen are chickenshits and didnt want to go on record. There is a loophole. The city does not enforce the new law. It is up to the citizens. if they are underpiad by an employer they must sue to recieve the "lawful" wage...
Dumbest law I have ever seen....well almost dumbest..........

 

[stdreb27]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/394723/a-letter-that-tells-it-straight#post_3513443
This is the bottom line here. No matter if USA or Europe has or does not have union employees, the Western workforce can not compete with the indentured servitude workforce available in China and India.
This really isn't true. But it depends were the value is added. We're actually quite competitive. (prior to the latest downturn after the dems took over congress in '08) Value wise we were exporting more than we ever have.
The thing is, we aren't competitive when it comes to low skill manufacturing. But when it comes to stuff that requires higher skill levels lower variance tolerances, and more productive, we are as competitive as they come.
For instance we build some of the most complex offshore platforms in the world. And ship them all over the world. Quite frankly if it weren't for local content laws we'd build more here. We can build them bigger faster cheaper and better. Manufacturing overseas comes with a host of problems, from intellectual property issues to personnel issues. I can tell you horror stories from people who've had to build platforms in oceana, or Europe. BUT when it comes to crap we buy, consumer electronics. We've as a consumer have decided we'd rather have quantity over quality. Thus it is reflected in the products we buy. We don't need a highly skilled worker to assemble an iphone, install the components of a computer, or build the Hamilton beach blender.
Where quality is critical in manufacturing we're leading players. For instance small arms. Quite a big of the commercial equipment I buy is built domestically. Dollar wise it's probably 75%. And I'm buying millions of dollars of equipment annually.
We just at the consumer level don't buy the quality of goods that is produced in the USA.

 

[darthtang aw]

This really isn't true.  But it depends were the value is added.  We're actually quite competitive.  (prior to the latest downturn after the dems took over congress in '08) Value wise we were exporting more than we ever have. 
The thing is, we aren't competitive when it comes to low skill manufacturing.  But when it comes to stuff that requires higher skill levels lower variance tolerances, and more productive, we are as competitive as they come. 
For instance we build some of the most complex offshore platforms in the world.  And ship them all over the world.  Quite frankly if it weren't for local content laws we'd build more here.  We can build them bigger faster cheaper and better.  Manufacturing overseas comes with a host of problems, from intellectual property issues to personnel issues.  I can tell you horror stories from people who've had to build platforms in oceana, or Europe.  BUT when it comes to crap we buy, consumer electronics.  We've as a consumer have decided we'd rather have quantity over quality.  Thus it is reflected in the products we buy.  We don't need a highly skilled worker to assemble an iphone, install the components of a computer, or build the Hamilton beach blender.
Where quality is critical in manufacturing we're leading players.  For instance small arms.  Quite a big of the commercial equipment I buy is built domestically.  Dollar wise it's probably 75%.  And I'm buying millions of dollars of equipment annually. 
We just at the consumer level don't buy the quality of goods that is produced in the USA. 
To touch on this further...I have seen several here that whine and complain about manufacturing jobs going overseas state they buy things online because they are cheaper and 90% of the time manufactured in China. We as Americans as a whole, are huge hypocrites. Do as I say, not as I do..............

 

[beth]

I agree with everything you say. But my guess is that manufactured imports we receive from overseas, particularly China, far outweighs the higher end manufactured products built here.
And, I can't blame the consumer. Most of the daily items that we use and buy, come from China, including clothes. Your average consumer does not need to buy an offshore platform. There are no alternatives unless you want to pay $300 for a pair of shoes or jeans. Does anyone here in this discussion not shop at Walmart on principal?
Companies seek to cut the cost of manufacture as low as possible so they go where the cost of production is dirt cheap---China. Most consumers can not afford to pay 5x more and up for something that they can get considerably cheaper. And, its not available at stores anyway. Before you call Americans hypocrites, take an inventory of every thing in your house to see where it was made. Americans go online to buy because they can get the same exact thing that is in the store cheaper.
Anyway, I found that letter unseemly. The CEO could have made a phone call if he wanted to rant and complain rather then writing it and it ending up on the internet. His company is going to go where he can produce tires the cheapest. And that won't be in the USA, France, or anywhere in the Western world. If the French workers were busting their butts 10 hrs a day, it would still be cheaper for him to take his company to China or India.

 

[theclemsonkid]

And herein lies the problem with capitalism. Unfortunately Americans want it both ways. They want cheap goods, but they want them made here. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that ain't happening anytime soon.
I'm convinced that you could ELIMINATE unions entirely, and America and Europe still couldn't compete in the manufacturing realm globally. Like someone up the post said, it doesn't matter what you do, when there are billions of people who will work for next to nothing. Let's say you eliminate unions, make everyone work a 12 hour day, and pay all those workers minimum wage. You still wouldn't be able to compete with what China has to offer.
And yes, I know that "China's wages are rising". So you know what that means? That means factories will start to move to the next place where there are a ton of people who need to work, Africa. The only way things would ever change in America the way the current system is set up, is thus:
1.) Companies would have to decide to willingly make less money at the top (i.e. CEO's, shareholders, etc) in order to move their manufacturing and work force to the United States. Chances of this happening? Less than <5%.
2.) The American consumer would have to be ok with the idea of paying 5-20% more for goods that are made in the USA. Chances of that happening? Less than <1%.
So there you have it, in simple terms, America's current conundrum.

 

[ironeagle2006]

Clemson Kid Wake up and Stop Drinking the Cool-Aid for one time will you. Michigan Passed a Right to Work Law meaning the UNIONS power up there is Destroyed meaning they can not force you to PAY TO WORK FOR A COMPANY if they represent them. Indiana did the Same thing and guess what the Steel Workers in Gary are telling the UNION to SHOVE it where the SUN Does not SHINE. Why the Union Bosses where collecting 200 a Month from EACH Worker there. 50 Bucks a Week to have the right to have a Job at the Gary Steel Works for US Steel. 50 Bucks in this Economy goes a LONG Way.
My Neighbor a Steward for the Teamsters told me that the Teamsters is Bleeding Cash to the point Hoffa Jr. is going to have to take a Pay Cut this year. Why all the Union Drivers in IN MI for UPS and YRC and ABF are telling the Teamsters the same thing SHOVE the Dues we are gone. Yet they are not Losing their Pensions or anything like that called they get More Money in their Pocket and do not line the Pocket of Union Leaders that in the Last Year cost this Nation Multiple Companies like Hostess and Others. Hell the Longshoremen Union is going to Honor the Clerical Workers if they go on strike Nationwide and shut down Every Single Port in this Nation if the Ports do not give them a 20% wage increase plus Lower the cost of Benefits to them. They already make 120K a year in the ports as Clerks. How much is enough.

 

[theclemsonkid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironeagle2006 http:///t/394723/a-letter-that-tells-it-straight#post_3513615
Clemson Kid Wake up and Stop Drinking the Cool-Aid for one time will you. Michigan Passed a Right to Work Law meaning the UNIONS power up there is Destroyed meaning they can not force you to PAY TO WORK FOR A COMPANY if they represent them. Indiana did the Same thing and guess what the Steel Workers in Gary are telling the UNION to SHOVE it where the SUN Does not SHINE. Why the Union Bosses where collecting 200 a Month from EACH Worker there. 50 Bucks a Week to have the right to have a Job at the Gary Steel Works for US Steel. 50 Bucks in this Economy goes a LONG Way.
My Neighbor a Steward for the Teamsters told me that the Teamsters is Bleeding Cash to the point Hoffa Jr. is going to have to take a Pay Cut this year. Why all the Union Drivers in IN MI for UPS and YRC and ABF are telling the Teamsters the same thing SHOVE the Dues we are gone. Yet they are not Losing their Pensions or anything like that called they get More Money in their Pocket and do not line the Pocket of Union Leaders that in the Last Year cost this Nation Multiple Companies like Hostess and Others. Hell the Longshoremen Union is going to Honor the Clerical Workers if they go on strike Nationwide and shut down Every Single Port in this Nation if the Ports do not give them a 20% wage increase plus Lower the cost of Benefits to them. They already make 120K a year in the ports as Clerks. How much is enough.
Uhh, ok. Not sure why you went on the anti-union rant there, but I digress.
I don't think the overall health of the economy depends on those few jobs you mentioned. The overall health of the economy depends on manufacturing jobs, period. Again, you could completely eliminate unions, and the economy is still going to suffer because old Kim Yang will work for $200 USD a week.
Let's just do the basic math, shall we? Assuming the average Chinese factory worker makes the equivilent of $187 USD per week. This was the latest study I could find which used numbers based on 2010 Chinese wages. Just for poops and giggles, let's add 10% to that figure, and and say $205 USD per week.
You break that down to a 40 hour work week (which realistically the Chinese worker is probably putting in 60) and you're looking at $5.13 per hour, which is substantially higher than it was even five years ago. The federal minimum wage in the US in currently $7.25 per hour. The average US manufacturing wage is $19.20 per hour (based on 2012 numbers).
Assuming that you could pay American workers minimum wage (which realistically you can't) you would still be at a 30% disadvantage. Based on the current $5.13 vs $19.20 you're almost at a 1 to 4 disadvantage. There is, under NO CIRCUMSTANCES, a way to compete with that.
Yes, it sucks, and yes, I'm not happy about it just like you... but that's the way it is.

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid http:///t/394723/a-letter-that-tells-it-straight#post_3513627
Again, you could completely eliminate unions, and the economy is still going to suffer because old Kim Yang will work for $200 USD a week.
Let's just do the basic math, shall we? Assuming the average Chinese factory worker makes the equivilent of $187 USD per week. This was the latest study I could find which used numbers based on 2010 Chinese wages. Just for poops and giggles, let's add 10% to that figure, and and say $205 USD per week.
You break that down to a 40 hour work week (which realistically the Chinese worker is probably putting in 60) and you're looking at $5.13 per hour, which is substantially higher than it was even five years ago. The federal minimum wage in the US in currently $7.25 per hour. The average US manufacturing wage is $19.20 per hour (based on 2012 numbers).
Assuming that you could pay American workers minimum wage (which realistically you can't) you would still be at a 30% disadvantage. Based on the current $5.13 vs $19.20 you're almost at a 1 to 4 disadvantage. There is, under NO CIRCUMSTANCES, a way to compete with that.
Yes, it sucks, and yes, I'm not happy about it just like you... but that's the way it is.
From what I read, it is more like 200 a month for your average low wage factory worker. The people who work in high skill tech, is more like 200 week.
There is no competing with that as I said in this topic from the beginning.

 

[darthtang aw]

I agree with everything you say.  But my guess is that manufactured imports we receive from overseas, particularly China, far outweighs the higher end manufactured products built here.
And, I can't blame the consumer.  Most of the daily items that we use and buy, come from China, including clothes.  Your average consumer does not need to buy an offshore platform.  There are no alternatives unless you want to pay $300 for a pair of shoes or jeans.  Does anyone here in this discussion not shop at Walmart on principal?
Companies seek to cut the cost of manufacture as low as possible so they go where the cost of production is dirt cheap---China.  Most consumers can not afford to pay 5x more and up for something that they can get considerably cheaper.  And, its not available at stores anyway.  Before you call Americans hypocrites, take an inventory of every thing in your house to see where it was made.  Americans go online to buy because they can get the same exact thing that is in the store cheaper. 
Anyway, I found that letter unseemly.  The CEO could have made a phone call if he wanted to rant and complain rather then writing it and it ending up on the internet.  His company is going to go where he can produce tires the cheapest.  And that won't be in the USA, France, or anywhere in the Western world.  If the French workers were busting their butts 10 hrs a day, it would still be cheaper for him to take his company to China or India. 
I don't shop at walmart out of principal. As a business owner I value my time far more than the cost of goods. So I have a different outlook. In walmart i can stand in line 25 minutes to buy three items. I used to shop there many years ago and would wait in line far more than the cost savings were valued at. The only thing I occassional might grab at walmart is ammunition...and they haven't had any stock for months. so I skip them.
As far as U.S. made goods being more expensive. I call bullshit. I own a few pairs of Texas made jeans I paid 30 dollars for. Icarry an american made dog food product that contains better ingredients than Purina and cost less per pound. It can be done if a person is willing to try. For Christmas I did shop at a local store for a big screen TV. I purchased an Olevia. It was about a hundred more for the equivalent tv in other brands, however I received a 5 year full warranty from the store with that price. If I move and drop the TV they will repair it...........
There are American made products out there for just about everything, you just have to look for them...which now days takes just a simple google search.....And takes less time than standing in a walmart 20 item or less line, with some schmuck that has a full shopping cart in front of you...................