A New Hospital Theory

[cshaffer]

I just wanted to throw out there a suggestion to those forced to do a Hospitalization of their fish. The theory is for a reverse Hospitalization. Using the main tank for Hypo salinity while moving your live rock and corals to another smaller tank.
The reasons for this are simple. My fish were sick and I didn't want to put sick fish in a small environment where they would get increased stress. I was also concerted with putting 3-4 larger fish in 2 X 10 Gallon tanks.
Coral / Live rock don't really care how much extra water they have around them as long it is of high quality. Besides if you do Hypo salinity (Beth's preferred Method) to cure ick or parasites then you are going to have to dilute your main tank down 20%. Easy way to do this is to simply take the water for your coral (small) tanks.
This method uses both theories on killing Ick. The Ick in the main tank dies because it cannot live in Hypo Salinity. The ick in the coral tanks dies due to starvation. There are no hosts in your coral tanks, all the fish must stay in the main tank. I started using this method about a week ago and my fish are parasite free and looking much better. I still have to wait a month though to insure the ick in the coral tanks starves to death.
Of course you are going to have to properly light your little tanks holding your coral but the benefits of this method less stress on your fish and you get to look at your fish for a month. My coral are actually thriving in this environment because they suddenly have double or triple their normal intensity of light because the little tanks are so much shallower. I am currently useing two 10 Gallon $8.50 tanks side by side with an overflow tube between them. One pump pumps water up to the higher tank and it flows via gravity and siphon back to the first. The overflow pipe should be 2-3x the diameter of you pump tube to keep the levels close. If you want instructions of how to setup 2 tanks as one email me and i'll send you a pic of my setup.
As a side note I would just like to note that there are a lot of "EXPERTS" in this hobby and don't use this method unless it is approved by Beth. Beth has become my authority for salt water and if you read this forum then you will reach the same conclusion everything she says is backed up by fact. I had someone at a pet store here in Boston try and sell me a "REEF SAFE" ick medication. That same person recommend " a little copper" to go with it....Hummm can anyone say MORON. Beth's word is law at least in my book.

 

[beth]

Well, thanks for the endorsement, very nice of you. You are new to this site, however. Have you just been browsing for awhile?
If you read some of the stuff I recommend here, then you know that I have been recommending to hobbyists that do not have a QT, or too small of a QT, to use their display for hyposalinity and move rocks and inverts to a QT. Even one that is as rudimentary as a rubbermaid with some PHs.
Myself, I don't have much of problem housing corals in a makeshift QT but some people will definitely have a problem with lighting in such a temporary QT. When I moved my tank, I kept all my fish and corals in a 30 gal rubbermaid for a wk [wo lighting] and all were just fine. I had mostly soft corals though. Saying that, I would not want to generally advocate or advise hobbyists to dismantal a reef tank.
The goal is to QT fish before they ever go into the display, and this is especially necessary for reefers.

 

[scubadoo]

A drawback to running hypo in your display is that you will kill many of the benficial "critters" living in your substrate. This could cause a drop in water quality.
Also, there have been recent discoveries over the past few years of these parasites surviving and thriving in lower salinities. SOme of these parasites can live in salinities lower than 1.009 This is why some are searching for alternative methods besided hyposlinity and copper.
DO a search on Advanced Marine Aquarist magazine. THey did a series on the disease over a period of about 6 months. I beleive it was back on 2002-2003

 

[treybomb]

just a ?... is a 20g a too small of QT and hospital tank for tangs angels and larger fish?

 

[beth]

Originally Posted by ScubaDoo
A drawback to running hypo in your display is that you will kill many of the beneficial "critters" living in your substrate. This could cause a drop in water quality.
Also, there have been recent discoveries over the past few years of these parasites surviving and thriving in lower salinities. SOme of these parasites can live in salinities lower than 1.009 This is why some are searching for alternative methods besided hyposlinity and copper.
DO a search on Advanced Marine Aquarist magazine. THey did a series on the disease over a period of about 6 months. I beleive it was back on 2002-2003

I disagree that nitrifying bacteria is killed by hyposalinity conditions. Did you read that at AMA?
Also, the only ich that could even remotely, and I do mean remotely, survive hyposalinity is ich that has not been appropriately nipped in the bud to begin with when the hobbyist first gets a fish with ich. Ich from the wild will not survive hyposalinity, I don't believe anyway. But, even if it does, the same could be said for copper treatment, which becomes less effective or even ineffective when ich is repeatedly exposed to it without appropriate eradication.
So then, what is left to adequately treat ich? Nothing.
I'd sure hate for anyone reading this to thing that hyposalinity is not effective and then go back to using copper.

 

[beth]

Originally Posted by treybomb
just a ?... is a 20g a too small of QT and hospital tank for tangs angels and larger fish?
Yes it is. The only option there is to get smaller juveniles.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by Beth
I disagree that nitrifying bacteria is killed by hyposalinity conditions. Did you read that at AMA?
Also, the only ich that could even remotely, and I do mean remotely, survive hyposalinity is ich that has not been appropriately nipped in the bud to begin with when the hobbyist first gets a fish with ich. Ich from the wild will not survive hyposalinity, I don't believe anyway. But, even if it does, the same could be said for copper treatment, which becomes less effective or even ineffective when ich is repeatedly exposed to it without appropriate eradication.
So then, what is left to adequately treat ich? Nothing.
I'd sure hate for anyone reading this to thing that hyposalinity is not effective and then go back to using copper.
"critters" means other inverts that live in your live sand. ..I was not takling about bacteria..but you intepret as you see fit...I should have been EXPLICIT.
Here is a cut and paste from AMA and their several part series on the desease...
Alarming new evidence has come to the attention of the scientific community that Cryptocaryon irritans is adapting to new environments. The parasite has been exposed to different survival pressures, necessitating its constant adaptation and variation (Yambot, et al., 2003). Several new strains have been discovered (Diggles & Adlard, 1995, 1997; Diggles & Lester, 1996a,b,c. Jee et al., 2000). It has been found in new regions, at cooler temperatures (12-16C) than previously reported (Jee, et al., 2000). Until recently, it was believed that the disease would not develop below 19C (Nigrelli & Ruggieri, 1966. Diggles & Lester, 1996b. Gordin, 1969). Highly aberrant strains have recently been found thriving in hyposaline environments in Taiwan (Yambot et al., 2003). With the news that Cryptocaryon irritans is spreading to new geographical locations and adapting to a wider range of temperature and salinity comes the need for fresh new strategies and treatments for its control.
Do you have info that states the above is incorrect?

 

[scubadoo]

More documented evidence regarding the evolution of this disease from AMA.....
The Chiayi isolate was discovered in a pond with a salinity of only 5ppt. This was the first recorded incidence of a Cryptocaryon irritans outbreak at such a low salinity. The Kaoshiung isolate was obtained from 12th-generation tomonts that originated from a cage at 10ppt salinity (Yambot, et al., 2003). Diggles and Lester, (1996a) suggested that the range of Cryptocaryon irritans has extended into estuaries.

 

[scubadoo]

in the interest of debate..please prove what I have posted here regarding ich is undocumented..and that it is impossible for these new strans to spread and possibly render hyposlintiy useless against SOME strans of the disease now or in the future. Not all cases..not that hypo should not be considered as a effective treatment...but there is evidence that indicates the disease is "evolving/adapting".
I was simply attempting to point out a drawback against treating the display with the damage to some if not all inverts living in the substrate...not bacteria. ALso, pointing to the discovery of new strans of this disease . I assume you were unaware of these discoveries...or have info that they are bogus.
I respect your opinion...I am surprised at your lack of respect with others...in light of discoveries and evidence to the contrary.

 

[sweetdawn]

I have a question. Do you leave your inverts in the main tank or do you put them in with the corals. I have bb in two of my tanks so I am not worried about substrate so much.

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by sweetdawn
I have a question. Do you leave your inverts in the main tank or do you put them in with the corals. I have bb in two of my tanks so I am not worried about substrate so much.
You need to remove all inverts that do not live in the substrate. But you need to be aware that all those thousands of inverts living in the substrate can be killed to some extent in hypo conditions. This COULD lead to a decrease in water quality given their role in the overall health of your system. You simply need to monitor your parameters and take measures should you see a decrease outside acceptable limits.
This is why it is always best to treat outside the display...but if you treat the display...you need to be aware of the possible drawbacks so you can plan and monitor.
Simply monitior your system closely and take required action should water parametrs slip outside determined limits.
I said it COULD lead/cause ..not that it will lead to reduced water quality.
JMO

 

[scubadoo]

Originally Posted by treybomb
just a ?... is a 20g a too small of QT and hospital tank for tangs angels and larger fish?
If you are including ALL angels the samller species such as a flame angel (centropyge) can be successfully QT'ed in a 20 gallon tank...especially if it is a 20 gallon long tank...even the adults of the species.
JMO

 

[beth]

Originally Posted by ScubaDoo
in the interest of debate..please prove what I have posted here regarding ich is undocumented..and that it is impossible for these new strans to spread and possibly render hyposlintiy useless against SOME strans of the disease now or in the future.
You're asking me to "prove" that the comments you cite from AMA are wrong? :thinking: Shouldn’t you prove that they are right, you quoted the source and are making the argument? LOL
I'm not a scientist and don't have the ability to prove that, but to the best of my knowledge no ocean in the world is at 14ppt....when the ocean gets to 14ppt and someone can provide evidence that ich from the ocean survived it, or evolved to accommodate it, then okay. I'm not dumb enough to fly in the face of hard cold facts. And I can certainly believe that ich, or anything alive can possibly "evolve" to accommodate any condition--that is natural selection and survival of the fittest.
Given enough time and the motivation to do it, I bet I could create some ich that could survive in hyposalinity. There is a very fine line, remember, between the hyposalinie condition where ich can survive and where it can not.
Originally Posted by ScubaDoo
I was simply attempting to point out a drawback against treating the display with the damage to some if not all inverts living in the substrate...not bacteria. .
I misunderstood you is all. And BTW, I have done some non-expert, non-scientific experiments on this myself and some inverts do survive hypo….bristleworms and brittle stars. Many die, but many don’t die. I have subjected the same specimens to hypo many times with survival in the treatment tank and replenishment of these populations once normal salinities return.
However, you are right, a DSB would be devastated with hyposalinity. Snails and likely other worms, infauna, would be destroyed in the hypo process. The choice to do hyposalinity in a display is a double edge sword. If the hobbyist does not have a QT but does have a tank load of ich infested fish, then s/he can either choose to let the fish die, or choose to take a beating on sand fauna. Which would you choose?
Originally Posted by ScubaDoo
ALso, pointing to the discovery of new strans of this disease . I assume you were unaware of these discoveries...or have info that they are bogus. .
Not at all. I’ve been aware of the antidotal evidence for at least 3 yrs, since I’ve read about it just like you have.
I can't find it in AMA, however. If you would like to send it to me at beth@saltwaterfish.com.

 

[scubadoo]

The information provided simply points out that the disease has been found in salinities below hyposaline treatment levels. One can easily extrapolate from this discovery that it is POSSIBLE for the disease to survive hyposaline conditions as a treatment for ich. This may provide a logical explanation for animals that get reinfected with the disease after weeks APPROPRIATELY administered hypo treatment.
this does not mean one should discontinue using this method, it simply provides an explanation as to why the disease may remain/resurface ...even after appropriate protocol is followed.
This is why we must keep an open mind as hobbyists and continue to explore alternative treatments for this disease.
All of this is based on readings from mainstream publications and recognized authors in this hobby.
IMO..it is not that the ocean may have lower salinity...it is all about a disease present in higher salnitiies which can survive salinities below those of treatment tollerances.
It would be a mistake not to consider thiis based on these discoveries. If this caution was from some off-the-wall publication or some chat board.....it could be easliy dismissed. The fact that it is a recognized and respected publication means it deserves serious consideration.
IMO...if hypo is followed per mainstream guidelines...it may not fully wipe out the disease. Just as you beleive it will...I beleive in some or many cases it will not.
This does not mean my opinion is right....just as it does not mean your opinion is wrong. We are all entitled.....but I have provided FACT....unless someone can find something that the magazine/articles were wrong and the findings undocumented and/or unsubstantiated.
You stated Ich from the wild will not survive hyposalinity....you do not beleive. I have simply provided discoveries to the contrary. Are they right? Are you right? Am I right?
Up to folks to read/.research and draw their own conclusions. To keep a closed mind is a mistake IMO. The series was published in 2003-2004 (I beleive I posted the wrong years earlier) and was a comprehensive six part series on the disease.
A very well written and dcoumented series loaded with good info regarding the disease, treatment, recent discoveries and some new approaches. A must read for any hobbysit that wishes to learn more about the disease and possible treatments. it can easily be found on the net but I am not allowed to link.
I'll take leave of this thread and wish all well in their disease treatments. Keep an open mind as even copper was discovered by accident as a treatment against the disease...I do not promote the use of copper.