a real Thinker

clown-lover

clown-lover

Member
i haven't been on here in a while, but i came across this e-mail and i thought i would share it with more than just my e-mail address 'book'. :
In light of the many perversions and jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke, it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.
Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding the attacks on Sept. 11).
Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.
And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"
In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.
Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school ... the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.
Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. The school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (there's a big difference between disciplining, touching, beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.). And we said OK.
Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said OK.
Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said OK.
Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. Agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good.
Then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of ---- women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said OK.
And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of ---- children and then further again by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK, they're entitled to free speech.
Then the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit ---. Let's record music that encourages ----, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.
Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.
Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.
Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.
Are you laughing?
Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they WILL think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.
Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in
 
moraym

moraym

Active Member
Seriously too long, that's why I don't read forwarded emails.
So can we get some Cliff Notes or something?
 
moraym

moraym

Active Member
Oh wait, just read the last few paragraphs, and I have an answer to the dilemma. Jokes spread like wildfire on email because they are funny and get me through work.
Jesus does not spread on email because people do not like to be preached to. Maybe if the Lord emails would just be a few sentences with a punch line they'd have more success, instead of being a novel.
Maybe if these email evangelists could just edit to an acceptable word count, we'd say OK.
 
vtecbro007

vtecbro007

Member
i disagree i think wat was said in this "email" is very thought out n very clear to us that we are all going to hell,....y because we americans cant think for ourselves
 
moraym

moraym

Active Member
In the words of my hero:
I'm the enemy, because I like to think, and I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech and freedom of choice. I'm the kind of guy who'd walk into a greasy spoon and wonder - "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecued ribs with the side order of grave fries?" I WANT high cholesterol. I wanna eat bacon and butter and BUCKETS of cheese, okay? I want to smoke Cuban cigars the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section. I want to run through the streets

[hr]
with green jello all over my body reading playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the urge to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake....
 
sammyg

sammyg

Member
Originally posted by Clown-Lover
And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"
People who oppose religion in schools and government don't want God to stay out, they want to be free from the specific religious beliefs they do not share from being imposed on them.
In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.
Are you saying this person was murdered because she opposed prayer in school?
Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school ... the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.
I read the Bible in my public high school, as well as in college. I'm pretty sure that's a common experience. Children are taught, regardless of their religion or lack thereof, not to kill or steal.
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.
There are plenty of ways to discipline a child besides infilicting physical pain. Some suggestions include grounding, extra chores, taking away things that are important to them, like driving the family car.
Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. The school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (there's a big difference between disciplining, touching, beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.). And we said OK.
Very few people don't want their children to be disciplined. They don't want their children to be hurt at school, which is a reasonable wish, I would think. If you want your children to be spanked with a ruler or whatever, tell their teachers and maybe you can work something out.
Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said OK.
This is respectable objection. I happen to believe in the Roe v. Wade decision with respect to the right for a woman to determine what happens with her own body, but if you believe that then abortion is troubling.
Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said OK.[/b]
I know if I had a teenage child, I wouldn't want them to have ---. I also know that it is better to be safe than sorry. Study after study has shown that abstinence plus birth control education is far more effective in reducing unwanted pregnancy than abstinence alone. Refusing to educate children about --- just makes them more likely to have dangerous --- when they do make that choice. Would you advocate seat belts shouldn't be in cars, because it just encourages unsafe driving? Driving safely is geat, but I'm glad the seatbelt is there just in case.Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. Agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good.
No question, Clinton's infidelity was immoral and sets a bad example for everyone else. But it is far better than immoral behavior in his job, such as misleading the country about a war. Forgiveness is the most Christian of values.
Then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of ---- women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said OK.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here. I've never heard anyone call pornography wholesome. And if you're referring to ---- art photography, then I'd ask what's wrong with appreciating artistic depictions of the human body, an activity engaged in by countless artists for millenia. Have you ever seen Michaelangelo's David?
And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of ---- children and then further again by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK, they're entitled to free speech.
No one says trafficking in child pornography is OK, nor is it protected by free speech. People caught doing this get decades in prison.
Then the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit ---. Let's record music that encourages ----, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.
I agree that today's pop culture is too violence/drug/--- obsessed, but you can't blame the media companies for producing what people want. If you want to argue with the free market, I hope you don't vote Republican...
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.
I think it's a pretty harsh generalization to say that "our children" have no conscience, kill strangers, etc. Most of these incidents are precipitated by specific home conditions, like absent parents, unsecure firearms in the home, etc. You'll never convince me that if kids had to say the Lord's prayer every day, Columbine wouldn't have happened. How about gun control, better social programs to help these kids, etc? Again, I hope you don't want these and vote Republican...
Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."
Getting back to the main thrust of you tirade: 911 happened because our society rejects God. Did all of the people who died that day reject God. Don't the hijackers (who, of course, believed they were doing God's work) bear the most direct responsibility for that tragic day?
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.
This isn't a fair comparison. People believe the newspapers because they are verified by multiple sources, and by and large, report true events witnessed by people who can back up their stories. The Bible is an ancient historical text written by many people, with contradictions between different authors. Also, no one who witnessed the events in question is alive, and so no verification is possible. It's like apples and oranges.
Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.
Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.
Are you laughing?
Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they WILL think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.
I would be worried about what other people think of me when I send messages that claim kiddie ---- is considered ok and protected by free speech, and other such lunacy. Jokes are funny, and can be appreciated by many people. Any just like people can be offended by your blaming of 911 or modern culture, people are often offended by jokes. If the joke was offensive, most people would be worried about sending it on too just like this message.
Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in
And if you do pass it on, you're doing your part to improve the shape of the world? The main reason I felt the need to respond to this message is that I am dismayed by the assertion that a secular society is the cause of so many of our social problems. If only we were more religious, the argument goes, we wouldn't have all these problems. What about all the horrible things done be religious people, such as the crusades, the 911 attacks, murdering of abortion doctors, and so forth? To assert that religion cures societial problems is to ignore the majority of world history.
To me, pushing religious belief is a cop-out; the easy answer that ignores the real problems. Curing social problems requires hard work, extended engagement, and above all, effort. Telling people to go to church doesn't.
Ok, my diatribe is over. I'm really not as hostile to religion as I may sound, but I object to its labelling as a cure-all. It can do a lot of great things for a lot of people, but not everything. I also couldn't allow some of the more ridiculous statements go by without a peep. If anyone read this whole thing, congrats!
-Sam
 
giraffemaster

giraffemaster

Member
Well put Sam.
"How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding the attacks on Sept. 11).
Remember that God gave people free will.
 
neoreef

neoreef

Member
Yeah Sam,
Reading the bible may or may not have an effect on a person's behavior. Many people get great comfort from reading it, many people use the bible to gain a greater connection to God, and to help guide them to serve God with their actions and their lives. I think this is a good use of the bible.
Other people use the bits and pieces of the bible to prove just about anything, as though a text written so long ago and translated from a language that is not English, can be an all-knowing authority, even when taken out of context. Bad use of bible.
Reading the bible will not give our children consciences, or make people good. Religion does not necessarily make people good. Think of all the child-abusing priests! Christianity does not make evil people good. In fact it can be argued that organized religion is the reason that so much violent activity occurs in the world. The Al Kaida attackers use a perversion of Islam to justify their behavior, and gain new recruits. The whole mid east mess is a fight for Jerulsalem--over religious sites that are right on top of one another. How about the Inquisition?
It is unfortunate that faith in a particular religion gives too many people a feeling that they and their type of faith have a moral superiority over the rest of humanity. Given the diversity of religions in the world, I cannot believe that God recognises only one of them as true faith.
I think it does not matter how one serves God as long as one does serve God. I also think that denying the diversity of faiths, or trying to discriminate against other faiths does not serve God.
Thus separation of church and state is necessary to preserve diversity and serve all God's children.
JMO
Kathy
 
grantman

grantman

Member
sammy,
I know if I had a teenage child, I wouldn't want them to have ---. I also know that it is better to be safe than sorry. Study after study has shown that abstinence plus birth control education is far more effective in reducing unwanted pregnancy than abstinence alone. Refusing to educate children about --- just makes them more likely to have dangerous --- when they do make that choice. Would you advocate seat belts shouldn't be in cars, because it just encourages unsafe driving? Driving safely is geat, but I'm glad the seatbelt is there just in case.
Very interesting about --- education and birth control. It is a well known fact that birth control devices are more readily available for teenage use than it was 40 years ago, or even 20 years ago. It is also well known that we teach --- education in school to almost all of our school age children. If "study after study" as you so eloquently stated shows how efective the programs are, then why do we have more teenage pregnancies than we did 40 years ago, or 20 years ago.
 
neoreef

neoreef

Member
Where are you getting your information? The National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy says that teen pregnancy is down 30.4% in the US from 1992-2002.:thinking:
 
dskidmore

dskidmore

Active Member

Originally posted by neoreef
Yeah Sam,
A) Reading the bible may or may not have an effect on a person's behavior.
B) Christianity does not make evil people good. In fact it can be argued that organized religion is the reason that so much violent activity occurs in the world.
C) Given the diversity of religions in the world, I cannot believe that God recognises only one of them as true faith.
D) I think it does not matter how one serves God as long as one does serve God. I also think that denying the diversity of faiths, or trying to discriminate against other faiths does not serve God.
E) Thus separation of church and state is necessary to preserve diversity and serve all God's children.
A) Agreed. Reading the bible does little to no good if the reader does not take the whole word to heart and try to get to know God.
B) Disagree. Check out the success rates of faith-based prison reform programs to secular ones. If a person makes a true commitiment, it can turn thier life around.
C/D) Partially agreed. If you were God, wouldn't you want all your people to know who you really were? On the other hand, there is no excuse for discriminating against people of other faiths. Christians are commanded to preach the gospel to all nations, not go beat them up until they believe.
E) Partially agreed. "Congress Shall Make No Law" regarding religion. This is important because we do not want a group of misguided leaders forcing incorrect doctorine on the people. Everyone should be able to study about and talk to God in thier own way. On the other hand, this clause of the constituion has been stretched to mean things it should not. Congress makes laws all the time about religion, they just don't ever pass pro-religion laws. (Example: church leaders are prohibited from endorsing political canidates.)
 
neoreef

neoreef

Member

Originally posted by DSkidmore
A) Agreed. Reading the bible does little to no good if the reader does not take the whole word to heart and try to get to know God.
B) Disagree. Check out the success rates of faith-based prison reform programs to secular ones. If a person makes a true commitiment, it can turn thier life around.
C/D) Partially agreed. If you were God, wouldn't you want all your people to know who you really were? On the other hand, there is no excuse for discriminating against people of other faiths. Christians are commanded to preach the gospel to all nations, not go beat them up until they believe.
Kathy: I agree. Beating them up will not make them converts, even if they say they are.
E) Partially agreed. "Congress Shall Make No Law" regarding religion. This is important because we do not want a group of misguided leaders forcing incorrect doctorine on the people. Everyone should be able to study about and talk to God in thier own way. On the other hand, this clause of the constituion has been stretched to mean things it should not. Congress makes laws all the time about religion, they just don't ever pass pro-religion laws. (Example: church leaders are prohibited from endorsing political canidates.)
Kathy: Is that a law, that church leaders can't endorse political candidates? I think it happens anyway!
 
dskidmore

dskidmore

Active Member

Originally posted by neoreef
Kathy: Is that a law, that church leaders can't endorse political candidates? I think it happens anyway!
The church looses non-profit status if they get caught at it.
I've heard "Christian Radio" doing that shamelessly. I can respect presenting a list of issues of Christian concern and which canidate takes which stand, but I don't respect blatant promoting of a person without mention of issues. I can't stand that from any group, not just Christians. Politics isn't supposed to be a popularity contest, it's supposed to be how we decide our nation will be run. We can't decide that intelligently without discussing real issues.
 
D

daniel411

Guest

Originally posted by DSkidmore
A) Agreed. Reading the bible does little to no good if the reader does not take the whole word to heart and try to get to know God.
I'm in total agreement that theres no corelation between good being done by "solely" reading the bible. The trick is reading it "with" prayer! Even Crowley read the bible and completely embraced it as truth, but he didn't pray, so no good could come.
E) Partially agreed. "Congress Shall Make No Law" regarding religion. This is important because we do not want a group of misguided leaders forcing incorrect doctorine on the people. Everyone should be able to study about and talk to God in thier own way. On the other hand, this clause of the constituion has been stretched to mean things it should not. Congress makes laws all the time about religion, they just don't ever pass pro-religion laws. (Example: church leaders are prohibited from endorsing political canidates.)
Yep, good ol' "Lyndon Johnson" wasn't happy that several organizations were against his election. So he helped bring along the 501(c)3? law. For reasons I can't understand, churches jumped on board sacrificing the pulpits for... what? As they're already tax-exempt! Even the IRS admits this! Fortunately there are many churches which won't sign up.
As for Congress making no law establishing religion. I can't even touch that this early in the morning, its to sad how its been twisted to mean things that its writers not only didn't intend but wrote how we can't allow that, which is happening, to happen.
 
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