A ticked off teacher!

[andretti]

I teach high school and there has been this growing trend going on in regards to kids not saying/standing for the pledge. It all started last year when one kid was told by his father (whom happened to be Muslim) that he did not have to stand for the pledge. Well now, it is spreading like wildfire. I MAKE my students at least stand for for the pledge out of respect for those who have given (and are giving) their lives for our saftey and freedom. But our school does not enforce this rule and it pisses me off!!! If they don't stand I give them lunch and after school detention. The problem is, many other teachers don't even blink an eye at this; I am the only one whom demands they at least stand. I tell the kids all the time that if they were in some middle-east country and they pulled something like this, they would be dead

When I asked them (two of them) in my first period class what their deal is, they say "We don't agree with Bush's foriegn policies." Then I ask them what it is about Bush's policies that they don't like, and they can't answer me. I am actually quite surprised that they even know the term foriegn policy. Many people with whom I speak with say they are just trying to be different and are trying to get a rise out of me and that I should relax. I realize they are trying to be different, but go be different about something else.

Don't get me wrong, I am not some right-wing

[hr]
Bush supporter. As a matter of fact I am a Democrat and I voted for Kerry, but Bush is still our leader and I support whomever leads the great ol' U.S. of A. Though I will not change my feelings or my "class-room policies" please write back and tell me what you would do in my position.

 

[sato]

I would handle it just as you do.
I myself am a Rebublican and voted for Bush and I admire that even though you are a Democrat you still support our troops and President despite what the rest of your party thinks.
Kids dont know politics from a hole in the wall and all they do is blindly follow the ideals their parents have. The problem is people form their opinions from watching CNN and ABC, NBC, CBS and all that does is lead to a biast(sp?) view of the current administration. The "liberal" media thinks this is another Vietnam and that they are still in the 60's but truthfully I feel they are bringing the Democratic party down by presenting false reports and making extremists like Micheal Moore spokespeople of the Democratic Party.
Like all politics however take my opinion for a grain of salt.

 

[andretti]

Well thank you very much.

You're exactly right about the liberal media. These kids of mine (students) pick up on things here and there and automatically draw a conclusion because they see people protesting the war. Hey, I'm all for free speach and everything, one has got to be at least educated about the opposing side of things. When I tell my students that hundreds of thousands of men & women lost their lives to protect the very freedoms that they are taking advantage of, it means nothing to them. They are so disrespectful and arrogant. I know people have been saying these kinds of things about teenagers since the '50s, but my god, it's so out of control now. And I'm not "out of touch" with this generation...I'm only 36 years old. Those of you that are 30 and over would be shocked to know what goes on in a classroom today; it's insane what these kids get away with. Today the pledge, tomorrow...who knows. One of my students said he hates Bush so much (parental influence) that when he's 18, he's moving to Canada! Ohh what a rebel. I told him he should move to Libya, or Iran. That way, he'll be sure to escape democracy and the western world's ways. But you know as well as I do, he'll never even leave his home state.

 

[sato]

Truthfully I am part of that generation as I am only 19, Everyone tells me im too young to be a Republican, hehe.
The problem is the media is attempting to bring us back into the 60's and 70's and some of my generation is buying into it and some arent so were getting that same "hippie" ideal coming back in a slightly different form with not as many people following it.
Blah, I hate my generation, this is too deep of a conversation for me to be in at 1:30 AM.
One thing I wanted to add.
What I feel the problem is nowadays is all the political correctness and safety measures were taking for our kids. We are turning our nations youth into a generation of wimps because we are taking away everything that children should do. Toy gun? nope promotes violence. Riding your bike? Not without full body armor because you might fall and scrape your knee, boohoo. Spank your kids? Nope cant do that anymore because it stifles their rights. The idea that children are equal to adults that is spreading nowadays is insane!!!
For example:
When I go to the movie theater with my friends who are all over 18 we will be swamped by all the 12-15 year olds kids who had their parents drop them off and because they are out of Elementary school they feel like bigshots and think they can say and do whatever they want. I have little kids mouth off to me all the time, I am 6' 4" 250 lbs! When I was 15 I wouldnt have dared say anything to somebody that size for fear they would kill me! I remember when I was in 6th grade walking down the halls with 8th graders around me and they looked like giants and I respected them because they were older then me and probably could and would kick my ass if I were to mouth off to them.
IMO Political correctness is the reason for all this because nobody wants to say what needs to be said for fear that it will hurt their chances or re-election or fear that an irate parent will sue and they will lose their job and ability to provide for their family.
Children == Adults

 

[1968oldsma]

i was the same why during hight school i always said my pledge but when it comes to religion i dont belive in it. the only under god thing never came out of my mouth and i dont expect it to come out of my children's mouth unless they want to. I dont think religion should be in the school system. I know i'm going to piss off a lot of people by saying this but i feel that religion is just well a crutch for the weak minded. Aside from that imagine what kind of world we would be in today if we didn't have religion. I dont know i just dont think religion should be in the school systems..and yes i voted republican. I still say the pledge and such when i go to my yankees games kids just dont know what they are talking about now a days but i dont know if giving them detention (i hated that so much maybe thats why lol) for not saying the pledge i mean it technically is there right not to say it basically you are just forcing your belive that they should say it on them and forcing them with fear of getting in trouble i dont know if i agree with that but i do agree in everything else you say. Once again these opinions are my own if people get mad and dont agree them i'm sorry this is just how i feel. Brian

 

[benj2112]

Man...that is a hard one.
I think the school policy around here (Chaska, MN) is that you don't have to say the pledge if they don't want to. I haven't been in the high school for a while, but I don't think you have to stand either. The whole thing came up because of religious reasoning, if I remember right. Some religions believe you can't pledge to an object or country (Jehovah's Witness I believe)...I am kind iffy on the real meat of that, but something like that. In those cases it had nothing to do with the "Under God" part, which was just added to the pledge in the 1950s to differentiate us from "those godless communists". So, the actual forced standing might encroach on that religious issue as well.
Making the other kids stand...I see no issue with. If they are truly protesting and serious about their convictions then they will sit and go to your detention (or not and force the school administration to step in possibly).
Have you gotten any grief from parents?

 

[andretti]

That's why I don't make the kids actually say the pledge (because of the "One nation under God" part, but I make them stand out of respect for those whom have paid the ultimate price. And yes, some parents filp out! My response is "My classroom, my rules."

And I've got 'em because that's what every parent says right..."my house my rules" Think about it, teachers these days are not just educators, we are foster mothers and fathers, friends, counselors, mediators, scapegoats, politicians, police, overworked, unappreciated, underpaid, and disrespected. Do you know that in most European, and Asian countries, teachers are right under God, Buddah, Christ, etc. They are more important than parents. And parents support their child's teacher NO MATTER WHAT.

Here, we are yelled at, (by parents & students) blamed for low test scores, etc. There is not a day or a week that goes by where I am cursed/yelled at from a parent or questioned about my teaching philisophy, tactics, rules, etc. I became a teacher because I wanted to make a difference, but it turns out the only difference is I am someone different for arrogant, uneducated morons to yell at. And the problem is, is that I cannot tell these pinheads what to do with themselves or I will loose my job; most of the time I cannot even defend myself. I feel like more eyes are on me that the president, the only difference is the president can launch our military on someone who pisses him off. I think I'm going to get my own military. :yes:

 

[1968oldsma]

ok i thought you said you made them actually say the pledge which i dont agree with, but standing up and paying respect to the Flag and what it stands for i belive in to the death. I thought andretti you said that you made them say it as well which i dont agree with but standing in front of it i agree with.

 

[beth]

What I find, is that too may educators wish to teach children morality and values rather than just the ABCs. My feeling is that if educators would plain and simple stick to reading, writing, and math, then we would not have a nation in trouble with the public schools.
Please don't take my comments personally. I just strongly believe that teaching children respect and morality and values are the obligations of parents, not teachers. And, I have seen that some teachers find a captive audience with their students in trying to instill their own personal values and beliefs. It is not there place to do that. Personally, I will stand and do the pledge with love and guesto for my country, and I will certainly prey to God too. I also believe in the Consitution of our Country which gives freedom and justice to all, allows for freedom of religion and the right to speak freely. These are the values that should be taught to our children in school. The right not to stand up and pleage, even when the teacher don't like it. You should be teaching children why they have that right, not trying to undermind parentalal rights with the child in the middle. It is the PARENTS right to request this and your obligation to respect their wish. You are there to teach, not repatriate small minds.
As I said, please don't take offense, its just how I think about the issue in general.

 

[schubert]

Yeah I agree...as if students don't have enough quotas to meet and guidelines to ahere to with all of the bureaucracy of public education, teachers' subconscious insistence on the idea that their class is the only one that matters, excessive information on issues that don't have any real meaning to the world or at least the student's life, and other such annoyances. Give us your little brain busters, take the 30-40K a year, and that's it...we have no time for your hopes of indoctrinating your students with the ideals and principles that apply to YOUR life, but in reality probably have very little true significance for the lives or the success of the students.

 

[somguynco]

Beth -
I agree with your post for the most part. But the problem right now in our society is that parents do not parent. They do not dicipline their kids or take an active role in their kids lives. They depend on the teachers, schools, and police to raise their kids. Many people get in an uproar in regards to --- education in schools, but if it isn't taught in schools, most kids wouldn't ever get a proper education in it, as the parents would never think about having that talk with them.
I think schools are a good place for a variety of ideas to be taught to them. That is why a variety of teachers and beliefs can be good for well rounded young adults. I agree that teachers shouldn't be using the classroom to force their own political beliefs on students, but I don't think it is a problem with them teaching students about them.
And as a former military person, I would never think of not standing up for the pledge or national anthem, but I served my country, and continue to do so as a police officer so that people can choose to not recite it or to remain in their chair. We are in a free society, and that freedom is what makes us a great place to live. So, my views are that if the kids want to make whatever statement they want to by sitting in their chairs, so be it.

 

[schubert]

The underlying problem that we have here is blatantly obvious. With every new generation that comes along, there is a new level of balance between personal liberty and traditionalist discipline. This is completely inevitable, and it is part of the ever-varying cycle of humanity. Nevertheless, generations ignorantly judge the others, deeming them either unruly or overly-conservative. The middle aged generation today probably views the level of discipline in today's youth as completely absurd and inadequate, thus leading to us being a bunch of spoiled kids with no sense of respect or appreciation. Simultaneously, they would deem many of the practices of the generations before them as excessively strict and overly-conservative. I'm sure the generation that everyone seems to be so intent on criticizing presently, ie. my generation, will have such ignorant judgements when they reach adulthood and dare to think that our generation is the only one that has everything correct as far as liberty and discipline are concerned. This IS the cycle, and none of us can stop it. So why don't we all just forget about the indoctrination and just do our jobs. Thanks.

 

[schubert]

Note: I just shut all of you down.

 

[schubert]

By the way...regardless of all of the complex agendas, state-approved curriculums, and graduation programs, true greatness, genius, and creativity can not be mass-produced on the bureauratic assembly line of education...period. Nor can it be mass-produced in organizations and clubs. This newfound insistence upon being "well-balanced youths" and having a "well-rounded life" it utterly senseless. Perhaps none of you realized that being well-balanced in such a way ultimately and only leads to absolute mediocrity. While we idolize the many great figures of history and art, we are wary of attaining their level of revolutionary genius in order to prevent ourselves from breaking the ever-coveted ideal of being "well balanced". I do not recall Mozart, Shakespeare, or Da Vinci being concerned about being well rounded citizens, active members of the community, or being involved in various organizations...and I must ask myself why they didn't? Oh yeah now I remember; they were slightly occupied in their attempts to establish themselves as the greatest artists of all time. Yet we desperately water down true greatness so that it is attainable by "everyone" in this huge society of mediocrity. Hahahah...utterly ridiculous! Well, at least I won't fall into this trap of complacent meaninglessness...

 

[sasbdas]

I absolutely agree with Andretti ! Sato I want to just say to you ,you made more sense than afew OLDER people on here. Your parents should be proud of such a fine young man!!!!!

 

[teen]

i totally agree with beth, techers should stick to thet teaching part, and really leave everything else up to the parents, and who ever else impacts kids, thats were role models come into play imo. to me schools are way to strict, i do great in school, and have no problems with being bad or anything, but i think that if kids cut a class or dont stand for the pledge, then they did it for a reason. school is a place for learning, were not there to be diciplined and written up for doing something we dont agree with. everyone is different and has there own opinion, and in my opinion, techers should really relax and let kids learn about the world themselves. everyone is supposed to be different because thats what makes the world go round, and imo teachers want the kids to all do everything perfect and behave and never make a mistake, thats my 2 cents. :yes:

 

[somguynco]

Originally Posted by Schubert
Well, at least I won't fall into this trap of complacent meaninglessness...
What exactly did your posts have to do with standing for the pledge? I don't think anyone in this thread has tried to say that all youth need to be the same. I don't think that Mozart has anything to do with the lack of respect for teachers and other authority that youth have today, or the lack of parenting that is occuring. And there is a big difference between being "well-rounded" and molded into what society wants of you. Schools are there to give students the basic tools they need to succeed in life, if you are a genius in something, then more power to you.

 

[andretti]

Yeah, I hear what Beth and others are saying in regards to teaching just the ABC's, but when there Is NO MORALITY to speak of from some of the so called "parents" then I feel it's my job to teach them the difference between right and wrong. And yes, I'm only human so sometimes, it's what I FEEL is right and wrong. And really, it's not an issue of right or wrong, it's what is expected of them once they become functional members of society. I have a truthful example for those of you that feel teachers should just stick to the ABC's. Many of my students come from abusive homes with no guidence, love, compassion, etc. So does that mean I'm just supposed to teach them the square root of 36 when what they really need is someone to talk to and some guidence? Unfortunately, teaching is not a black and white issue; it's all grey. I had no idea I'd start such a great chat piece. Keep 'em coming. The bottom line (I feel) is that we are way too spoiled as a nation. We have so many rights without even having to work or earn any of them with the exception of being born on U.S. soil. What scares me is look how bad our society has become in just the last 20 years. If the Cleaver's could have peeked into the future 50 years, I don't think they would have ever left the air. They would have just wanted to stay in Mayberry.

 

[beth]

The Clevers and Andy Griffin never left the air and they did stay in Mayberry. These were fictionalized TV characters that did not even represent reality way back when. I don't find our society so bad. Where do you live and teach that you see everything so negetive? Insisting that children stand for the pledge doesn't have anything to do with compassion. Insisting that children stand is basically "putting them in the middle" of a principals battle between yourself and their parents. You can not impose respect for the pledge. You can lead by example, however, which I think will go a lot further in instilling respect for the flag and our country.
If you know of children that are being abused and neglected, as a teacher you are obliged by law to report that to the children service in your area. Teachers do need to be compassionate there is no doubt about that. But compassion does not mean imposing your personal beliefs on the kids. Primarily, first and foremost, educators need to prepare children academically so that they can suceed professionally in life. There is so much work to be done in that area, that I just don't understand why teachers feel like they must take on the role of parents instead of putting their nose to the grindstone and just teach. If you want to help neglected children, then tudor those that are falling behind ater school, gear your compassion for what you are supposed to be doing--teaching. Not failing a child who needs some extra tutoring will mean a lot more to that child than forcing him/her to stand for the pledge. Everyone has their role in society. A teachers role is to teach and prepare students academically so they can succeed with a job as adults.

 

[farmboy]

How about any student not standing for the pledge can explain why in an essay? Maybe 10 pages or so. Sound good?
Freedom was won by the military not the newspaper. Respect the people who fought for your freedom to NOT stand. Don't stand but have a REAL good reason not to.