adding LR to my tank ?

[vinnyraptor]

Not all damsels are agressive... there are agressive and non agressive. Green chromis damsels are the least aggresive. yellow tailed damsels are also not agressive. People seem to think becuase one type of fish in a speicies can be aggresive they all are... This is not the case. Damsels are good to get for reefs, just get non agressive ones. Also a flame angel would look good in that tank. They are primarily reef safe as long as you rubberband some nori to a rock for them.
Cycling a tank with a damsel is not Vick bad. Whoever said that is just ... i dont even know the word... stupid comes to mind, but its too uneducated. Vick starved dogs, forced them to fight for food, and in the end killed them if the fight was called and they lost, or let them die in the fight. Now damsels can take a lot of problems, so can clowns. There was a thread on here that a guy went on vaca for 3months i think, came back the water was down to like a foot in the tank, it was all green, everything was dead but teh damsel. The majority of times damsels wont die from cycling. As long as you have adaquate filtration and do waterchanges then the fish wont notice a difference... People think that they are in constant pain and suffering... but they are not... They are pooping in a tank so that bacteria have something to eat... I dont get the cruel part.
Your tank must be cycled because of the fish you have in now. So why are we worrying about the start up cycle. You get a mini cycle everytime you add new fish, or uncured rock... cause ur raiseing the bio.
And then wheres this long way from buying coral... i mean that makes no sense... a lot of people put it in brand new tanks... whats your wattage. You can pretty much keep any coral (well most). You just have to put them at different places in the tank. When people first started reefing... there were no MH or T-5 lights, they used outside lights or reg desk lights. Corals and survive in almost anything. But the amount of wattage you have depends on how much A: they grow B: intensity of colors. Your not going to brown out and bleach unless your keeping high intensity light corals with like a 20 watt bulb. What is your wattage on your tank (amount of watts/number of gallons).
Base rock is not man made.. most times its just dead LR that was take out of water. So its not living anymore. Yes i guess it could be man made, but most times its just dead LR.
While were on LR there are many different kinds... Fiji , Tonga, pacific shelf, namoli, marshall, Bali alor, Vanuatu, caribean. Base rock is white, thus dead LR. Fiji is best for Bases, and is cheapest. Then it gets exp becuase it is dead corals. They leave their calcium exioskeletons behind and over numerous years they make hard rocks. I have the Alor, marshall, tonga, and fiji in my tanks. They look great. And the tonga and marshal and alor can get up to 12-13 bucks a pound. DONT BUY IT. Go to CList.. i got maby 150 pounds for 2.50 a pound. You can use epoxy putty to kindof weld the pieces togther. A: dont have to worry about rock slides. B: you can build higher and more cool looking designs.
Base rock is not limestone... you dont want limestone in your tank if i recall... BASE IS DEAD LR, ITS WHITE, and its good if your buying your rock for LFS and online. If your going to get it on CList dont buy base just buy LR.
Coralline algae is the easiest thing to get. i had my tank purpled up in a week. It spreads like crazy. If your rocks dont have any on them (almost impossible) then you can A: wait or B: buy Purple Up which is a great attitive. Dont worry about coralline, you will get it, and them you will hate it and wonder why you wanted it becuase it gets everywhere and you have to constantly scrape it off glass. To speed this up though, if you have it in one place, take a rock and rub it against coralline. The coralline will break off and float through ur tank to another rock.
Some people really need to know what they are talking about and get educated before they help
Ive been in SW for 3 months. I have 2 tanks. I spent a month reading all the threads i could. Ive heard all the story and fixes. And i learned what to do before i did it.
Didnt mean to insult anyone i just wanted to tell him what was what.
to say cycling with damsels is different than fighting dogs is pretty dumb because BOTH are cruel and BOTH are torture. when the AMMO spikes during a cycle it can litterally burn the fishes gills. they may live thru it but so do alot of dogs after being forced to fight. besides there is no need to cycle with any live fish. a raw shrimp from the seafood dept. of the grocery store will work just fine as will live rock. so its not only stupid and cruel but not even necasary. just like dog fighting...
btw ive been in this hobby for 15 years not 3 months, lol so i think i know what is what....

 

[vinnyraptor]

Not all damsels are agressive... there are agressive and non agressive. Green chromis damsels are the least aggresive. yellow tailed damsels are also not agressive. People seem to think becuase one type of fish in a speicies can be aggresive they all are... This is not the case. Damsels are good to get for reefs, just get non agressive ones. Also a flame angel would look good in that tank. They are primarily reef safe as long as you rubberband some nori to a rock for them.
Cycling a tank with a damsel is not Vick bad. Whoever said that is just ... i dont even know the word... stupid comes to mind, but its too uneducated. Vick starved dogs, forced them to fight for food, and in the end killed them if the fight was called and they lost, or let them die in the fight. Now damsels can take a lot of problems, so can clowns. There was a thread on here that a guy went on vaca for 3months i think, came back the water was down to like a foot in the tank, it was all green, everything was dead but teh damsel. The majority of times damsels wont die from cycling. As long as you have adaquate filtration and do waterchanges then the fish wont notice a difference... People think that they are in constant pain and suffering... but they are not... They are pooping in a tank so that bacteria have something to eat... I dont get the cruel part.
Your tank must be cycled because of the fish you have in now. So why are we worrying about the start up cycle. You get a mini cycle everytime you add new fish, or uncured rock... cause ur raiseing the bio count.
Get LR, its cheap. Go on to CList find someone around you thats selling it. No more tahn 3 bucks. Ask them ?'s about the tank it was in and other things about it. When you feel comfortable go with buckets full of saltwater, pick it up, bring it back, and if it was still in water when you got it... you can put it right in your tank... (might get a small cycle if there was some die off in transport)...
Base rock is not man made.. most times its just dead LR that was take out of water. So its not living anymore. Yes i guess it could be man made, but most times its just dead LR.
While were on LR there are many different kinds... Fiji , Tonga, pacific shelf, namoli, marshall, Bali alor, Vanuatu, caribean. Base rock is white, thus dead LR. Fiji is best for Bases, and is cheapest. Then it gets exp becuase it is dead corals. They leave their calcium exioskeletons behind and over numerous years they make hard rocks. I have the Alor, marshall, tonga, and fiji in my tanks. They look great. And the tonga and marshal and alor can get up to 12-13 bucks a pound. DONT BUY IT. Go to CList.. i got maby 150 pounds for 2.50 a pound. You can use epoxy putty to kindof weld the pieces togther. A: dont have to worry about rock slides. B: you can build higher and more cool looking designs.
Base rock is not limestone... you dont want limestone in your tank if i recall... BASE IS DEAD LR, ITS WHITE, and its good if your buying your rock for LFS and online. If your going to get it on CList dont buy base just buy LR.
Coralline algae is the easiest thing to get. i had my tank purpled up in a week. It spreads like crazy. If your rocks dont have any on them (almost impossible) then you can A: wait or B: buy Purple Up which is a great attitive. Dont worry about coralline, you will get it, and them you will hate it and wonder why you wanted it becuase it gets everywhere and you have to constantly scrape it off glass. To speed this up though, if you have it in one place, take a rock and rub it against coralline. The coralline will break off and float through ur tank to another rock.
Some people really need to know what they are talking about and get educated before they help.
Ive been in SW for 3 months. I have 2 tanks. I spent a month reading all the threads i could. Ive heard all the story and fixes. And i learned what to do before i did it.
Keys are water parameters, filtration, and matinence. Once you have those everything else will follow.
Didnt mean to insult anyone i just wanted to tell him what was what.
{ive been in this hobby for 15 years not 3 months lmao! chromis are a species of damsel but not true damsels and dont have the agressive tendencies that striped, domino, yellow tail's, etc. do. base rock is any rock your LFS sells as base rock. cycling with fish is cruel and its torture and its unnecassary, just like dog fighting and just like dog fighting some fish live thru it. how dare you insult me! you have a few tanks and read a few books, big deal! that make you an expert? you have ALOT to learn.}

 

[vinnyraptor]

first of all chromis are a sub species of damsel and not true damsels. they do not carry the aggressive traits that dominoes, striped, and yellow tail's do. cycling with any fish is cruel and its torture. when ammo spikes it can litterally burn the fishes gills. cycling with fish is also unnecessary as tanks can be cycled with raw shrimp or just some LR. to me its no different then fighting dogs because its torturing an animal for your pleasure. and just like some fish survive during a cycle some dogs survive dog fights. lastly ive been in this hobby for 15 years not 3 months, lmao. i have shrimp older than your tanks buddy. how dare you come on here as the know all end all because you set up a few tanks 90 days ago and read a few books. btw base rock is any rock your LFS sells as base rock. no one on here pretends to know everything and we share our expierences and knowledge. you are a newbie and have ALOT to learn.

 

[marchingbandjs]

first off i stated that i wasnt saying anything against u i was more saying to him...
baserock is yes anything your store sells, although most places will sell dead LR not man made rocks, im again not saying your wrong im saying what he is most likely to find. I can see where you say it could be torture, but they are known to live through and be able to withstand high changes... now does this mean they are uncomfortable and their skin is burning, i dunno. I agree also that raw shrimp is they way to go as i did on my last tank, i was just trying to tell him what goes on and not give him the idea its a terrible thing. Sub species or not they are still damsels, so i was again telling him that not all damsels are aggresive, cause when he goes to store theywill say chromis damsels... or at least around me they do . except in dog fights the dogs that lose and survive are 99% of the time killed. there is no comparison here to dog fights ... lets settle at that any connections drawn, while there are some, are stretch and twisted to fit the argument. I know you have been doing it for a long time i gave u credit saying theres a lot o exp. I know i have a lot to learn and i know you prob know a lot more from exp then i do. The only thing i was doing was playing to things he might see or do. You were giving ultimatums, and were not giving other options. I was playing devils advocate for the sake of the person.... Nothing against u but he needs to hear all the facts, no just opinions.
sorry for any confusion i did not mean for you to take it personally...

 

[vinnyraptor]

Originally Posted by Marchingbandjs
http:///forum/post/3131855
first off i stated that i wasnt saying anything against u i was more saying to him...
baserock is yes anything your store sells, although most places will sell dead LR not man made rocks, im again not saying your wrong im saying what he is most likely to find. I can see where you say it could be torture, but they are known to live through and be able to withstand high changes... now does this mean they are uncomfortable and their skin is burning, i dunno. I agree also that raw shrimp is they way to go as i did on my last tank, i was just trying to tell him what goes on and not give him the idea its a terrible thing. Sub species or not they are still damsels, so i was again telling him that not all damsels are aggresive, cause when he goes to store theywill say chromis damsels... or at least around me they do . except in dog fights the dogs that lose and survive are 99% of the time killed. there is no comparison here to dog fights ... lets settle at that any connections drawn, while there are some, are stretch and twisted to fit the argument. I know you have been doing it for a long time i gave u credit saying theres a lot o exp. I know i have a lot to learn and i know you prob know a lot more from exp then i do. The only thing i was doing was playing to things he might see or do. You were giving ultimatums, and were not giving other options. I was playing devils advocate for the sake of the person.... Nothing against u but he needs to hear all the facts, no just opinions.
sorry for any confusion i did not mean for you to take it personally...
i didn't take it personally but you did strike a cord so to speak. chromis and damselfish are in the same family but are NOT the same especially when it comes to behavior. damsels are related to angels but one wouldn't say that a flame angel is the same as a domino damsel. as far as base rock goes if its dry its "dead" but if it is in saltwater then it has bacteria on it and is alive. it doesnt matter if it has coraline growth if it is submerged in saltwater then its LR. where i come from base rock is alive. there are rocks sold in bulk that is dry but is reef safe thats different from live base rock. premium LR is much more expensive and will almost certainly have some coraline as well as sponge, feather dusters, and other hitchhikers. back to the dog fighting thing. if you know what your doing is hurting an animal and you do it anyway wether it be for financial gain or to cycle your tank its wrong and its cruel. there is no difference to me. the fact that some of these fish live doesnt mean they dont suffer permanent damage. you were also wrong on your advise about corals wattage etc. i only answer these threads when its about something i know about and dont do it to prove im smart. there are many times when i posted a thread because i had a question i didnt know the answer to. i've been in this hobby a long time but only consider myself an average reefer, there are experts on this site who know more than i probably ever will.

 

[marchingbandjs]

I know i never said you thought u were smart. I know that they are in the same family but are different. Though when sold most people will sell them as damsel fishes cause they are so close, so when he goes to buy they will put them under damsel fish. So i was saying that he could have them even though they are "damsels". I also know the difference between base rock and LR. When he goes to buy Base rock most likely its gonna be dead LR i was just letting him no that... Okay i can agree to disagree that its cruel to the fish, but not as cruel as dog fighing. About the corals what part isnt right. There are any people i have heard of running corals in less than 3 watts... i run mine at 4.5.... and in my holding tank they have regular aquarium lights and do fine. They dont spread as rapidly... or grow as fast... im just saying he can have corals with what he wants.... and from my exp and some other people on here thats the info i know. Im not saying i know a lot and i certainly dont have expierence im just saying what i have soaked up.
High end LR alway has hitchhikers i don't get what we are arguing about here?... Looking on CL he can easily get high end rock for 3 bucks. I got mine and its full of feather dusters and small sponges
btw sorry for hijacking thread good luck on ur tank post pics.

 

[bonerac]

ok guys maybe i explained it wrong when i said start up damsels. these were just then first fish i placed in my tank. not to cycle my tank i let my tank run for 8 weeks before i put any fish in and i used products of the shelf from the lfs to cycle my tank. i used the term start up damsel as these were the first saltwater fish that i was buying to get started in the hobby. i will choose my word beter the next time sorry for the confusion.

 

[globaldesigns]

Personally, I would remove all that rock and get proper live rock meant for Saltwater, there are several different types, but then you know you will have to proper stuff.
don't be cheap with it either, LR is also meant to act as your natural filtration, so I would recomment 1 to 1.5 pounds of rock for every gallon. I know for alot of people that the cost of the rock really hurts the wallet, but if you don't get cheap on this factor you will have better success overall with your tank.
Good Luck!

 

[gio28]

i agree bout the LR...you can find good deals locally if you look around. i actually only have 1/3 LR in my tank, the other 2/3 is base rock that looks just like LR...it has been seeded and covered in coraline algae so there is no difference now.

 

[marchingbandjs]

If ur getting a good deal lr will be cheaper than base rock so go with all LR.. be careful that you can clean your glass with the aquascape...

 

[bonerac]

i have picked up some LR and some base rock i will post some pictures when the lights come on. my next question is how long does it usually take for the LR to seed the base rock and do i need to have the two rocks touching or do they just need to be close together?
thanks again

 

[ophiura]

I would personally, as stated, remove all of that and get either limestone baserock (which is often dry) and live rock. IMO, none of the rock is really suitable. the fake coral is ok but it will not stay white like that. Keep it in an accessible place as you will need to clean it in the future.
If you have LR in the tank it will seed everything over time. It does not need to be touching per se. Hard to tell you when it will "seed" because it depends on your definition of "live rock." If in terms of bacteria for the biological filter - it would be within days if the base rock was dry. If you mean other critters, it could take weeks to years.
No, not all damsels are as aggressive as others. But it is likely that most that new hobbysist buy - and that LFS' push - are not the "nicer" kinds. The striped damsel in the tank IS aggressive and used to bite me when I had one. The closely related maroon clown can also grow into an absolute brute.
FWIW, this thread turned unnecessarily a tad "ugly" there in the middle. I really didn't see much that was "hating" in this thread. The board is ABOUT OPINIONS.

There are loads of them. There are MANY ways to set up a tank, successfully, including - to be frank - cycling with damsels. It is no longer in vogue but it worked. It is both cruel and a bit of a money maker for LFS (sell them, take them back for less money, resell them full price, take them back, resell...damsels were often fated, if they survived, to repeat this over and over until death).
Anyway, let's be mindful of tone, etc. From my perspective the thread was going fine at the start.
I definitely think that we need to encourage opinions. Differences are fine and even constructive (when polite), but let's not accuse people of being opinionated etc as it gets us no where. I appreciate that in the end it was worked out but it didn't need to begin.
Thanks to the OP for sticking through it

as many do not come back
If you are in or near a big city - definitely check out local reef clubs. Really good deals and support there

 

[bonerac]

ok lights are on here are the rock that have been added. the first picture is where i started after removing all the bad rock. over the past week i have added 4 pieces of LR about 13lbs and 2pieces of base rock 11lbs. each week i will be adding a little more. the damsel has been removed from tha tank and given to the lfs.and i did remove the fake coral because i just didnt like its look the rock with the 3 holes in it is a fake rock the othe 2 rock were dry base rock. keep the advice comming thanks

 

[ophiura]

Cool deal. That rock is looking better but I would still remove the rocks on the right near the bottom.
Also the anemone and the starfish are incompatible. Quite possible the star will eat the anemone...

 

[bonerac]

ok let me ask why would you remove the black rock for astetics or for funtionanlity? there are three crabs living in that rock 2 emeral green and one sally if i were to remove the rock what would be the best way to get them out? when i purchesed the anemoen i was told he was compatable with the starfish and maroon clown that was in the tank. he (the anamone was an impules buy for cheap money at lfs) i later found out he was not natural to the clown. the anemone has been in the tank for about a month now.i think i will be bringing him back.
thanks

 

[ophiura]

Believe me, the star is predatory

In fact if you ever intend to have snails or corals...those are also at risk I'm afraid the LFS might have some bad advice if they said they were ok together. Nonetheless it is a cool star. You are right, the anemone is a Caribbean Condylactus and not a natural host for the clown. The clown definitely doesn't need an anemone, which typically require very strong lighting. Condylactus are very hardy relative to other types of anemones.
I don't have a real close up shot of the black rock but I am wary of it. I would also remove the one with the 3 holes. It may not be a big issue if it remains a fish only tank. But for corals and such I prefer to not take any chances with what i put in there. So my gut reaction is to take it out. Gut reactions are not always purely logical though