Advice on New Setup

[p65t]

Hi everyone,

First of all, I love this site. I just found it the other day and have learned so much. I'm starting a new setup of a 55 g. tank. I will be purchasing live rock and sand. I will have fish, crabs, shrimp, snails, starfish in the tank. What filter should I get and should I get a skimmer in addition to the filter? I had planned on just getting an HOB filter, is that ok? Also, can you recommend a refractometer?

Thanks in advance and I apologize if any of these questions are redundant with other posts.

 

[mr llimpid]

First Welcome.
First buy all your basic equipment, don't for get the three basic test kit ammonia, nitrate and nitrite. Also set up a QT (10gal will do). Make a list of fish and inverts wish list, post it and let people comment on it. Not a fan of canister filters other will comment on them. A skimmer is not needed for fish only tank but it won't hurt. The refractor that this site sells will do fine. And the best advice I can give is patience.
Keep asking questions the advice is free.

 

[ivan m]

Don't forget an RO unit, this will be the single best investment next to a skimmer. I am also in the process of starting a new 75 gallon FOWLR and i have decided on the REEF OCTOPUS BH2000 HB skimmer and a AC 110, this along with the live sand and live rock will be plenty for now. If all goes well with this for about 6-7 months i will convert my 90 gallon and go sump/refugium. I own a 180 also but that will stay with my lovely FRONTS, so no saltwater there. lolol. Best of luck with your 55 and you will get lots of help from many here.

 

[flower]

Hi, welcome to the site!

If you have not purchased your tank yet...consider a 75g instead. It's basically the same as a 55g but it's just a little wider...believe me it makes a difference. It won't take up any more space in the home then the 55g. I prefer the 75g over the 55g because it's so narrow and restrictive on what you can keep in the tank.

Both the 55g or 75g would be just fine with a HOB filter. To be honest I have not found to date, a HOB skimmer worth a hoot. However, if you don't plan on corals you can keep some macroalgae, you won't need a skimmer, and it will keep your water parameters pristine. Eliminating the dreaded phosphate and nitrate nightmares. Check out Golf Coast Ecosystems, they even have a free on-line book about each type of macro that you can read all about them and how to care for them. The best way to describe them is to call them sea plants, for lack of a better term. They add color to the plain rocks, you can have macros with corals, but you have to be on your toes to trim back the extra growth to keep the macros from growing over them.

Getting your own RO (reverse Osmosis) unit is best, but you can also purchase RO water at any supermarket that has a refill station. Walmart sells it for 37 cents a gallon. My LFS sells RO for a $1.00 and $1.50 for premixed saltwater, which IMO is a rip off. I wouldn't use tap water in any SW setup. The quality of the water is the biggest issue of keeping SW critters, it makes no sense to skimp on it and use tap water, there is allot more in it then chlorine that just causes nothing but problems.

LOL...any refractometer ... I go for the cheapest, if I can find it for under $50.00 I'm happy, I have yet to find a bad one. I would not get API test kits, they have become unreliable in the last few years, I don't know what they did to change the kits, because API used to be top of the line. I use seachem myself, Also Instant Ocean, and Salifert are good brands. Master kits are cheaper then purchasing each test separately.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Welcome to the site.

I wouldn't do a canister filter either. HOB filters are fine for a fish only.

The most important piece of the puzzle is clean water. Buy RO/DI water for your tank and start your tank with good clean water as well. Do not use tap water, dechlorinated tap water, or copper pipe distilled water. Having clean water is half the equation for keeping a clean and successful aquarium.

Consider investing in your own home RO/DI unit for your fish water, as well as your own cooking and drinking water. It pays for itself, and you won't have to lug water containers everywhere.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/396468/advice-on-new-setup#post_3532612
Welcome to the site.

I wouldn't do a canister filter either. HOB filters are fine for a fish only.

The most important piece of the puzzle is clean water. Buy RO/DI water for your tank and start your tank with good clean water as well. Do not use tap water, dechlorinated tap water, or copper pipe distilled water. Having clean water is half the equation for keeping a clean and successful aquarium.

Consider investing in your own home RO/DI unit for your fish water, as well as your own cooking and drinking water. It pays for itself, and you won't have to lug water containers everywhere.


Just jumping in with a word of caution....I 100% agree your own filter system is the way to go . However, I read that RO/DI water is unfit and dangerous for humans to drink. Only an RO (Reverse Osmosis) filter can be used for both the fish tank and for drinking and cooking.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Flower, you shouldn't believe everything you read. I have been drinking RO/DI water for years, as well as many of the citizens in my local area. We have a water store down the street that sells 0TDS water, which is water that has been polished by a large Kati/Ani deionizer. In fact, in order for the man to make money selling water, it is regulated by the state how high his TDS can rise before he needs to change his filters. DI water is just a resin that exchanges ions with whatever TDS is left in the water after the RO membrane. An RO membrane, depending on what membrane you are using, has anywhere between a 90% and a 98% rejection rate - which means that you do not totally eliminate all the TDS in the water. Being in reefkeeping, it is essential to use only 0TDS water or else you risk a whole array of chemicals getting into your system.

Now, since I have been drinking RO/DI unit for close to eight years, I have absolutely no major health problems. I have not melted from the inside nor is it like pouring battery acid down my throat. I'm sure there are people on this board that also drink their RO/DI water out of their units as well - and telling new hobbyists about something that you read that you can not find a legitimate scientific article about is... not being a good mentor. Furthermore, there are additional filters that a person can add after the fact, like the "taste and odor" filter that makes RO/DI water taste great after it comes out of the unit.

Now, what you might be thinking about is the experiment done in school where you put an animal cell in a hypo-osmotic environment and it pops because the solutes leave the cell to try to maintain homeostasis... In this case, sure - BUT, our bodies are not made of single cells, and once you drink it, it mixes with your bodies environment and is used - it does not cause cell death on a macro level.

Now, provide me a scientific article - one with a legitimate scientific source and not opinion - and I will reconsider. However, I also know that I have been drinking it for eight years without any harm, so it better be a dang good source.

-----

Also, RO membranes DO NOT remove all the TDS in the water, remember me talking about rejection rates? Lets say you have a TDS of 100 going into your unit... a rejection rate of 90% on most 100gpd filters will reject all but 10 TDS. Which means that if you are only using an RO Unit, you will not be removing 10ppm TDS of something in your water. Could be nitrates, phosphates, heavy metals, chemicals, chlorine, chloramine, ammonia, floride, sulfides, medications.... Since in our aquariums we are striving to limit nutrients to only what we introduce as food,... allowing 10ppm TDS of anything extra to get into the tank over time can cause more harm than good.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/396468/advice-on-new-setup#post_3532630
Flower, you shouldn't believe everything you read. I have been drinking RO/DI water for years, as well as many of the citizens in my local area. We have a water store down the street that sells 0TDS water, which is water that has been polished by a large Kati/Ani deionizer. In fact, in order for the man to make money selling water, it is regulated by the state how high his TDS can rise before he needs to change his filters. DI water is just a resin that exchanges ions with whatever TDS is left in the water after the RO membrane. An RO membrane, depending on what membrane you are using, has anywhere between a 90% and a 98% rejection rate - which means that you do not totally eliminate all the TDS in the water. Being in reefkeeping, it is essential to use only 0TDS water or else you risk a whole array of chemicals getting into your system.

Now, since I have been drinking RO/DI unit for close to eight years, I have absolutely no major health problems. I have not melted from the inside nor is it like pouring battery acid down my throat. I'm sure there are people on this board that also drink their RO/DI water out of their units as well - and telling new hobbyists about something that you read that you can not find a legitimate scientific article about is... not being a good mentor. Furthermore, there are additional filters that a person can add after the fact, like the "taste and odor" filter that makes RO/DI water taste great after it comes out of the unit.

Now, what you might be thinking about is the experiment done in school where you put an animal cell in a hypo-osmotic environment and it pops because the solutes leave the cell to try to maintain homeostasis... In this case, sure - BUT, our bodies are not made of single cells, and once you drink it, it mixes with your bodies environment and is used - it does not cause cell death on a macro level.

Now, provide me a scientific article - one with a legitimate scientific source and not opinion - and I will reconsider. However, I also know that I have been drinking it for eight years without any harm, so it better be a dang good source.

-----

Also, RO membranes DO NOT remove all the TDS in the water, remember me talking about rejection rates? Lets say you have a TDS of 100 going into your unit... a rejection rate of 90% on most 100gpd filters will reject all but 10 TDS. Which means that if you are only using an RO Unit, you will not be removing 10ppm TDS of something in your water. Could be nitrates, phosphates, heavy metals, chemicals, chlorine, chloramine, ammonia, floride, sulfides, medications.... Since in our aquariums we are striving to limit nutrients to only what we introduce as food,... allowing 10ppm TDS of anything extra to get into the tank over time can cause more harm than good.


I read it here on the site first, from one of our "professors" (those I consider smart guys, like yourself) I don't remember who...but there was an article and everything. I guess since your insides haven't melted...LOL... But if you do notice your cells exploding, be sure to let us know.

On a more serious note..................

Here is a site where the subject is battled out...so I'm not completely crazy, admittedly there are pro's and con's on it's use...
http://www.finishing.com/110/17.shtml">http://www.finishing.com/110/17.shtml

Here is the E-how site: http://www.ehow.com/about_6717686_deionized-water-dangerous-drink_.html

Our fish tanks benefit from RO/DI water because we replace what elements we want in the tank with our salt mix and additives. From what I have read on the subject, the DI water is too pure to be of any use for consumption. However we also make up for what is no longer in the water, from the food we eat and other beverages, which if I understand the articles, as long as you consume enough of the other stuff to make up what minerals are lacking, you shouldn't have a problem. It may not kill you, but deionized water is not good for you to drink.

 

[bang guy]

We need to drink water because the vast majority of our body is water and it needs to be constantly replaced. Minerals, vitamins, proteins, carbs, fat, etc we can get from food. I'm not going to say DI water is better for you than any other water but it's certainly not bad for you.

Personally I drink RO water as I find it makes a better cup o joe than DI water but that's just personal preference. My ice cubes are made with DI though. They're crystal clear.

 

[2quills]

It's hard to imagine ro/do water being bad for you unless the ph is a tad acidic. Perhaps it's not considered healthy to drink because it offers no other benefits other than hydration. They make alkaline ionizers for deionized water filters now to make it healthier.

 

[bang guy]

RO/DI is typically considered PH 7.0.

 

[2quills]

RO/DI is typically considered PH 7.0.
That would be in conflict with what I'm seeing from my zero tds water. It's more like 8.0. However, I've read that 5.0-6.0 is also common in some locals for reverse osmosis. A ph of 6.0 is 50 times more acidic than that of neutral water but I don't think it would require a trip to the emergency room if you drank it. People drink acidic beverages all the time. We would probably each have to find our own balance that reduces any long term effects of an unbalanced diet.

 

[bang guy]

I said "considered" specifically because pure water has no ions and therefore it mathematically has no PH. When you test DI water what you get as a result is random. If you breathe near it you'll end up acidic due to the CO2, if some dust falls in you'll end up alkaline. There's really no good answer on what the PH of DI water is so it's considered neutral (PH = 7.0).

 

[2quills]

The mathematical consideration is understandable. If we wish to understand cause and effect then it would be beneficial to know what you're actually dealing with is what I was aiming at. Someone with consistent readings around 5.0 is a big swing from my general indications of around 8.0.

 

[bang guy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/396468/advice-on-new-setup#post_3532644
The mathematical consideration is understandable. If we wish to understand cause and effect then it would be beneficial to know what you're actually dealing with is what I was aiming at. Someone with consistent readings around 5.0 is a big swing from my general indications of around 8.0.

Not really. The swing can be very drastic with minimal change.

Just to see if I'm off base or not take your PH 8.0 DI water and blow in it with a straw for 5 seconds. That should theoretically add just a tiny amount of CO2 to the water. Then test it.

 

[2quills]

Not really.  The swing can be very drastic with minimal change.
Just to see if I'm off base or not take your PH 8.0 DI water and blow in it with a straw for 5 seconds.  That should theoretically add just a tiny amount of CO2 to the water.  Then test it.
I wouldn't say you're off base at all. Certainly the idea of adding c02 to water dropping ph numbers has long been discussed. I tried it on a test size sample of ro/di and on about 20 gallons of fresh salt mix that I currently have churning in my mixing container. Large drop in ph on the test sized sample but no notable change in the large container for 5 seconds. Never the less I can test 8.0 coming strait from my filter with virtually no time for dust to settle in it. All I'm wondering is that if I can blow into some water and it is enough to get a reading of 6.0 would the water not then be considered acidic (not saying it would kill us to drink)? Just wondering how many folks out there would test below the minimum range of their kits coming strait out of the unit if any at all?
Hope we're not derailing to much.

 

[bang guy]

Yep, testing the water at a PH of 6.0 definitely means it's acidic. My point in all of this needs to be taken in the context of quantity.

If you have a cup of water with a trillion H3O+ ions and a trillion OH- ions the PH will be neutral. If you add a million H3O+ ions it's not going to change the PH in any measurable amount.

However, if you make some DI water that is pure (minimal ions) and add the same million H3O+ ions the PH swing will be huge.

 

[geridoc]

The main reason ot to drink RODI, as opposed to RO water is taste. The ions that are left behind by reverse osmosis give the water a taste, whereas 18 mega-ohm water (highly polished RODI) has no taste, and we don't like it. The pH of the water should not be an issue for consumable water since it is an unbuffered weak acid, meaning that even if it is acidic, that goes away easily. It isn't like drinking hydrochloric acid.

 

[bang guy]

I can agree with all of that. I drink RO because of the taste, it's true, especially for coffee. I still like my DI ice cubes though