Ammonia spike

[deblin2]

I set up my tank in the spring of 98. I have really had nothing but problems. I finally got the ammonia and nitrite down to zero, but the nitrate level was off the scale. Every once in awhile I would have an ammonia spike and the tank recyled. All of the critters in the live rock and live sand are gone. There are no worms or copods or other creatures that used to be there. Lately I had the ammonia and nitrite level down to 0 for a long period of time, but the nitrate level was still off the scale. Someone helped me figure out what to do and I finally got the nitrate level down to 0 also. They told me to do a water change of 6 gallons a week. I then added a fish which would not eat. I fed the fish a little extra trying to get the fish to eat. I really didn't feed them that much though. It was the very corner off one of the little blocks of food.I didn't know it but someone in my family was also feeding the fish. She probably fed more than I did. So I had another ammonia spike and the new fish died. Now ammonia and nitrites are very high and the nitrate level is back to about 40. I am getting really discouraged. I love my saltwater tank, but it is almost always in trouble. I need to know what to do. Do I do another water change or leave it alone until it straightens itself out. I did put ammonia lock in it to help the fish. I also added some fresh carbon. I still have my two percula clowns and dottyback that I have had for almost this whole time. They seem to be fine. There is still some algea growing on the live rock. I have a 38 gallon tank with a small canister filter, a millinium 2000, aquaclea 200, and a protien skimmer. I have quite a bit of live rock and sand. I guess I can't say it is live sand anymore. If you can help me I would appreciate it. I have a question-- why do my little envelopes have a dot on them. They always look different than everyone elses.

 

[fshhub]

The dot on the envelopes means you have posted in that thread
4 - 1/2 years os a long time for a tank to stabilize, this as I am sure you know is severely abnormal.
Could be how often and how much you feed. Also, what kind and how much circulation do you have?
How about stock?/ what was in the tank(as far as inhabitants)?
Adn your filters, how often do you change or clean and how do you clean them? Do you rearrange the tank often and do you stir and try to clena the sand bed? If so, how often?

 

[deblin2]

I have 2 percula clowns and 1 dottyback right now. I have done a 6 gallon water change every week for about the last four months. During that time I changed my filter media in a different filter each week so each of them were changed about every 3rd week. If one seemed to be clogged I changed it more often. I probably did not change my filter media enough before that because I had been told several times not to because it would make the tank cycle again. I see now that was not good advice. In the past I would do an 8 or 9 gallon water change either once or twice a month. It did better when I started the 6 gallon water changes every week (at least until I added a fish.) I do clean the rocks and stir up the sand bed each time I change the water. I am at a loss. You can see why I am so discouraged. I would appreciate any advice that might help. I only feed once a day. I give them a piece about the size of a small sunflower seed.

 

[fshhub]

never stir the sand, this will stir up garbage that is being broken down. You wnat your crew to do its job, and let it be
Rearranging rock, can have the same effect, so rearrange minimally
changing filters will cause you to go back into a spike(often), so change them as infrequently as possible too(bacteria needs to recolonize the filters too, which can cause spikes)
water changes, IMO, if done while cycling will also slow it down and possibly prevent it from working thorugh
Some of this stuff has to be left alone to do its job, unlike fw taks, these tanks will do alot of the work for you, if you let them, if not, they will work against you.
In 2 years, I would assume that the cycle should have completed and maybe even settled down, but somehting is wrong, and each of hese things can cuse a spike, and doing all of them, I would assume most definitely would.

 

[deblin2]

I have really just started doing those things in the last four months. Before that I was really too afraid to do too much. I was recently told that it was good to change out the carbon in your filters so I started that. That has also been in the last four months. I can get the tank stabalized and then make the slightest change and I start all over again. I don't have a cleanup crew. I don't really even have many worms left in the rocks or sand. They all died off in one of the other ammonia spikes I have had. I don't think I have any copods left. So I let it cycle again and then what do I do? How often are you supposed to change your filters? Right now the water is really bad. Surely it will get better soon. I hope so for the sake of those three tough little fish in there. Even with me doing all these things wrong, my water was perfect until I added fish. I don't know what to do. A cleanup crew would die in there at this point. When do you add them?

 

[jessicarabit]

I think I might know where your problem is on the Nitrates (which makes sense because it would start the Amm & cycle all over again), so any Sharks out there correct me if I'm wrong. Let me get your set up straight. You only have a 38 gal, with a canister, Aqua Clear & another (the millinium)??? I ignored the Protein Skimmer, because that shouldn't be a reason. Also you have 'quite a bit' of LR, how much are we talking in lbs??? How about LS (lbs)??? The problem may very well be that you have to much bio on such a some tank. Another way of putting it, you have so much filtration that your choking out the stablization of you bio. You could be adding way too much media for too bacteria to grow, forcing them to start a cycle.
If you get a clean-up crew & I recommend it, I have found that Blue-Legged Hermits are the hardiest little b@stards. They can live in a bucket of tank water with LS for wks while ya move & are setting up the tank. I even lower the salinity to Hypo levels (.009) & they stilll live.
If you have like 65 to 80 lbs of LR, then you really don't need any other bio media. I don't know the 'rate' of lbs. per gal. on LS, but LR is anywhere to 1 1/2 lbs. per gal. You get the LR & LS in all honesty for decoration, not realizing that this is natures filtration. If you have enough of nature's filtration, there is no need for artifical...just water circulation. I have basically removed all the bio balls from the Wet/Dry filter & only keep the Aqua-Clear for carbon purposes (read below). Oh, I forgot, what kind of water do you use??? Do you use tap??? Do you treat it??? You could also have hard water. Chicago does & thats why I have everything on filtration (drinking tap, bathrooms & of course my fish water). I would check into a RO (I know that they are pricey, but replacing fish & your personal stress is worth it in the long run). Good Luck, Jessica

 

[deblin2]

I don't have that much live rock. I bought it piece by piece so I am not exactly sure. I would estimate about 35 - 38 lbs. Would I still need to take off some of the filtration and at what point do I do that? I am in the middle of another cycle at this point. If I do take off some of the filtration, what do I take off? If I took off more than one would I take off one and wait awhile before I took off another? How long would I wait? I would wait until all of this clears up before adding the crabs wouldn't I? I do remember that when I put the sand in it was two 20 pound bags so I have 40 lbs. of that. I appreciate any help you can give me.

 

[fshhub]

it almost makes sense,
Often, mechanical filtersa re a bane or at least a nuance, when it comes to trates. Since they trap the garbage.
What I ould do, since you are mid cycle, is remove everything(except the skimmer), esp if you have a dsb, and let the cycle run, then see if it stabilizes. All I use is a dsb, and Lr with good circulation in some of my tanks, a skimmer is only an asset beyond this. But, I feel extra mecnhanincal filtration is only more work(at best).
Since you are mid cycle and havenothing to loose, it definitely cannot hurt to try it. Then, if successful, wait a week or 2 and monitor, then if all remains stable, tryagain, with a pair of clowns, or some other damsel.
HEY, at this point, give it a shot(even if you feel uncomfortable, removing all filtrattion). If it works, you made leaps and bounds. Right now, you have nothing to loose, except filters, which are only costin g you money even when they do work.
you can still use some of them for circulation(no media) if you like and don't have any powerheads.

 

[jessicarabit]

I agree with fshhub last statement, mostly. However, I wouldn't think it to be wise to remove it all at once, you could start the cycle again. I would remove the bio-foam from our Aqua-Clear right away, then slowing start removing the bio media from you canister every other day. What kind of media is used in the Millinium 2000? I feel you are definately better off with maybe the canister & 1 of the other overflow hang-ons, but you really should get some powerheads in there to help circulate the water, meds, good & bad bacteria & of course oxygen.
You still however never responded to what kind of water you use???
Yes, I would wait to all is settled before the clean-up crew goes in. Do you add any trace elements treatments to your tank??? What about the brand of salt??? Some are very poor quality & add nitrates to the tank, again starting off your cylce. With 40 lbs. of LS & about 1 lb. a gal. of LR, you should have enough with only 3 fish of your bio right there. I would take this up in the DISEASE & TREATMENT board. You also might want a bottom feeder (such as a cucumber) that shifts through the sand & gets it good.

 

[fshhub]

the onlyreason I recommended doing so now(all), is because the tank is already mid cycle, isn't it??
The fish that are left, could go into a Quarentine tank for now, until this all passes.
Or do so slowyl, as mentioned, but this may only prolong the process.

 

[deblin2]

I use Instant Ocean salt. It is supposed to be good. Our tap water is on the hard side of average if that makes sense, but I run it all through a tap water purifier that says complete deionization of water and that it removes all impurities and it list everything imaginable. It is supposed to make hard water soft. The only thing I add to the water is Ammonia Lock just for precaution. I tested my tap water just to see how it would test out and it tested out ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0, and just a trace of phosphates. I do not add any trace elements and never have. The millinium 2000 has a carbon filter in front and a plastic grade in back for the bacteria to grow on. After all this is done should I take off all the filters or should one with carbon be left? If so which one should I leave? I did add some air pumps just to help my fish out. I need to get some powerheads. Thank you for taking time to help. You are right. It makes me nervous to unplug the filters. I have nothing to lose though. It can't get much worse. I am afraid I don't have another tank to move my fish to. I never got this one set up right so I never tried another one. Will they be o.k.? They have been tough through all this. Even though I don't have as much live rock as you thought, it is still enough to take care of the aquarium? Oh. The only thing in the canister filter is carbon.

 

[deblin2]

I just added two power heads. Where do I need to put them in the tank. Right now I have one on each side close to the top. Do they go right up at the top or a little bit down like I have them, or does one need to be at the bottom? I have also started removing filteration.

 

[fshhub]

do not aerate the tank
as for the powerheads, you want good circulation throughout the tank at all levels. some low, and some high, in different directions, not whirlpooling. I like to target 10 times the gallonage per hour for circulation as a minimum, so do not worry about over circulating, We have over 1400 gph totalled for our 75 gallon.
Some like carbon, but I do not like ot use it unless neccessary, so myy opinion is to not use it, either.

 

[jessicarabit]

I honestly don't see why you have a canister if all it does is carbon. Plus you say you have a carbon in the Millinium & the Aqua-Clear?? That's alot if so, too much. If you are going to use carbon (I do), then I would think that either the Millinium or the Aqua-Clear would be enough. I personal would disconnect the canister if its just for carbon. I would hang the other 2 filter on either side for good flow coverage. I agree that you don't need the air tubes, saltwater fish don't need this. Circulation is what takes the place of this procedure. In the Wet/Dry there is a tube that pumps air in for the Protein Skimmer, but only the tiniest little bubbles make it through the filtration media. That is ok, but the levels in the tank should be watch not to go to low so the water flows in smooth without a drop to create more bubbles. Oh becareful not to put too strong of a stream towards a rock, keep the pump's flow free in the open. I wish for you you could stablize your cycle & then be able to tell while removing media if it's effecting your nitrates, because that is what is always present & would show up. I feel for you, this is a very unusal circumstance.

 

[deblin2]

I am so thankful to have someone guiding me through this. The air pumps are gone now. I also took the canister filter off. On the millinium do I take out the plastic cartridge that is in back of the carbon when I use it for water circulation? I have it out right now and it is just circulating water. . I have two powerheads on each side of the tank. The fish love that. They have had more fun playing in the water. The fish seem o.k. so far. I left the carbon in the Aquaclear. That is the only carbon I am using. Since the two of you didn't agree on that, I decided to compromise and leave just a little bit. Is it o.k. if the water flow is going across the rocks and sand as long as it is not blowing straight on them? Again thank you for your help. How long will it be before it should stabalize if it is going to?

 

[deblin2]

You are not going to believe this because I didn't. I tested my water tonight and ammonia was 0, nitrite was 0, and nitrate was 60. This is totally crazy. I had at least a couple of more weeks for the cycle to finish. Especially with what all I did to the tank. I could tell the fish were happy and feeling good. Now where do I go from here? Do I get rid of the last bit of carbon I have in one filter? Do I start doing water changes to get the nitrate down or do I just leave it alone for awhile. If I leave it alone, how long, and then what do I do to it. Wow-- talk about people giving good advice. Thank you!

 

[jessicarabit]

Good to hear!! I'm glad for you. Sounds as if you cycle broke. Here's the deal on carbon. It removes oder from the water, also toxins & chemicals (even good ones). This with the very few fish you have saves you on having to change the water more. I mean you only have 3 fish. You should wash the carbon out in the same temp. if not water from you tank, but don't wash/rinse the sponge block at the same time...in fact you should or will be removing it soon, so forget that (still don't do it if you do keep it on). With all that bio media gone, your trates should lower (slowly). Test every day (if you can), but at least every other. Since your trates are down to 60, I would only remove media every week now, not to put stress on the system. Your gotta let it recover & figure out where it's main source is gonna come from (your live stuff). What have you removed??? I would suggest some time of filter floss to stuff in your filter to trap any debris, just rinse it out frequent so bio dosen't build up...maybe you could use the foam block. I really don't know on that. I just don't want your trates to jake up. I honestly do a change, small but still benifical, every week. It just makes sense to give them 'fresh/new' water.

 

[deblin2]

The first thing you said do was to remove the sponge from the aquaclear filter. I did that so the sponge filter is gone. I left the carbon in that filter. Then you said since all I had in the canister was carbon that I could go ahead and remove that too. So that is also gone. You didn't seem the think the millinium was doing very much so I took the plastic plate out of it and the carbon and just ran clear water through it. Then I took out the air pumps and put in the two power heads. So actually the only thing I have is a little carbon in the aquaclear. There is a sponge on my protein skimmer. I am not really sure what it is for. I am not sure if I am supposed to clean it or not so I haven't in a long time. When I finish here I will rinse out my carbon and put some filter floss in the filters. How often do I change or clean the filter floss. Wouldn't it be better if I just changed it every week and threw the old away? Is there anything else I need to do? Will the nitrates go down on their own? I thought water changes were the only thing that would make them go down. It isn't time for a water change yet is it? When I do, how much should I change out to keep from messing it up? After we get all of the problems worked out will I be able to add a couple more fish? Will the filteration from rocks and sands be enough to handle that? Thanks again for your help.

 

[jessicarabit]

Originally posted by Deblin2
The first thing you said do was to remove the sponge from the aquaclear filter. I did that so the sponge filter is gone. I left the carbon in that filter. Then you said since all I had in the canister was carbon that I could go ahead and remove that too. So that is also gone. You didn't seem the think the millinium was doing very much so I took the plastic plate out of it and the carbon and just ran clear water through it. Then I took out the air pumps and put in the two power heads. So actually the only thing I have is a little carbon in the aquaclear. There is a sponge on my protein skimmer. I am not really sure what it is for. I am not sure if I am supposed to clean it or not so I haven't in a long time. When I finish here I will rinse out my carbon and put some filter floss in the filters. How often do I change or clean the filter floss. Wouldn't it be better if I just changed it every week and threw the old away? Is there anything else I need to do? Will the nitrates go down on their own? I thought water changes were the only thing that would make them go down. It isn't time for a water change yet is it? When I do, how much should I change out to keep from messing it up? After we get all of the problems worked out will I be able to add a couple more fish? Will the filteration from rocks and sands be enough to handle that? Thanks again for your help.

BINGO!! I think I may know where you problem is all along. Besides all the other bio media, you just said you have a sponge on your Protein Skimmer & hadn't clean it! HELLO!!! The Skimmer's job is to remove waste from the tank, so anything & everything should be cleaned! I clean my entire Skimmer (in vinager) like every 3 months & I (you should) clean the collector container every week or when dirty, which ever comes first. There is probably a ton of built up & bacteria in that sponge (wear a glove)!!!
I'm not familar with Millium 2000's system, so I don't know what this plastic plate is. I would keep some sort of filter media (which can add to your bio if not cleaned with hot water) to both of the filters, since that's what they do. You just need to be on top of cleaning the media so it doesn't hurt your system. They say you should do a 10% water change every other week (up to 20%), but not more than 50% a month. I have a 55 gal & do about a 5 gal (5%) water change weekly. If I was you I would be doing 10% a week till the bio stablizes. I mean the longer you let water set, it builds up. Does this make since??? I mean the water you put from the change is zero amm., trites. & trates. So this will dilute the water, but adding too much water change will be too much 'fresh' & overwhelm the bio, triggering a cycle. I don't know if this makes sense??? You just have a delicate balance that needs to be met & it takes trial & error to get it work for you & you individual tank set up.
About adding new fish...patience is a virtue! I would wait for 3 months & see how the tank stablizes & if you can repeat this on a month or 2 basis. Added anything new will again put a strain on the bio. New fish, deaths, feeding, fish waste & as you found out, too much bio is all items that play into balancing out the water's stablization

 

[deblin2]

I do understand about the water changes and about adding the fish. I have cleaned the skilter (not in vinegar though) except for the sponge that hangs on the air tube. I have to clean the cup quite often. Sometimes twice a week. What is that sponge for anyway. It just sits in the aquarium. It is not in the skimmer. How do you get the vinegar out enough so none of it goes back in your tank? I am not sure I understand about putting the filter media back in the filters. We went through all of this and the water finally gets better. Now we put it back in? I thought if you cleaned the media in hot or fresh water that it would kill the bacteria and pollute your tank. Is that not right? When I wash it out is that hot fresh water or hot saltwater and what kind of media are you talking about? Do I need to wash the little bit of carbon I have in that one filter out again in hot water or maybe replace it with fresh? Do I put it in both of the filters? I washed the one little sack of carbon out last night in clean saltwater. I thought I was just supposed to use the filters for circulation. The plastic plate in the Millinium is a place to build up bacteria. You said I needed to add a cleanup crew. When do I do that? After several months?