An Easy and Cheap Way to Cure Ich (or ick) - My Adventure with 'Ich-Attack' by Kordon

ntracy

Member
Originally Posted by bioneck47
http:///forum/post/2652171
Wow! a blue hippo in a 14gal. This may be your problem right there. Baby or not a 14gal tank is not suitable for a blue hippo. I didn't even want to quarantine my less than an inch blue hippo in a 20gal and your keeping yours in a 14.

Let me correct myself. I have two hippo tangs. One is an adolescent (pictured above) and he's in my 34g. the second is a baby (about 3/4") and is in my 14g. He's doing fine... swimming around and brightly colored.
 

crimzy

Active Member
Originally Posted by ntracy
http:///forum/post/2652475
Let me correct myself. I have two hippo tangs. One is an adolescent (pictured above) and he's in my 34g. the second is a baby (about 3/4") and is in my 14g. He's doing fine... swimming around and brightly colored.
Two hippos... one in a 34 gallon and one in a 14 gallon... why didn't I think of that?

Look how much $$ I wasted getting a 225!!!???
 

michaeltx

Moderator
your are going to continue to have problems you have two tangs in very small tanks even if they are small now the lack of swimming room will eventually *sooner than later* will develope HLLE and become open to many other parastites and diseases. I would look into a upgrade in tanks or look at returning them to the LFS and find a new one ASAP cause any LFS that is going to sell you two hippos for that small of a tank really doesnt need to be in buisness!!
Mike
 

camfish

Active Member
Originally Posted by MichaelTX
http:///forum/post/2652552
your are going to continue to have problems you have two tangs in very small tanks even if they are small now the lack of swimming room will eventually *sooner than later* will develope HLLE and become open to many other parastites and diseases. I would look into a upgrade in tanks or look at returning them to the LFS and find a new one ASAP cause any LFS that is going to sell you two hippos for that small of a tank really doesnt need to be in buisness!!
Mike
Wow, I agree. My lfs asked me like a million questions before they sold me my first fish. Kind of like a quick quiz...thanks to you guys I passed. I think that that is a very desirable characteristic for a fish store. If they care enough about the fish, then you can usually trust that the fish will be healthy there.
 

ntracy

Member
The larger tang I got was included in the sale of the 14 gallon tank (which i agree is ridiculous, why I moved him to the 34g). I'm planning a 90 gallon tank with refugium, and when that happens, I'll transfer the bigger one to it, and move the baby hippo to the 34g.
None of the stores ever really denied me the right to purchase livestock from them. Yes they did ask about my tank size, but that's about it. I guess it's just different in CA.
**mod edit= please keep on topic in the threads there is the aquarium for off topic posts**
 

jints

Member
Originally Posted by ntracy
http:///forum/post/2652471
I'll probably continue the treatment for at least a week. As I said in the first post, this is also an experiment with this particular treatment. A part of me wants to see this through just because I want to provide people with options... partially because I don't believe that a QT is the only way.
You want to see this through because you want a easy way out. You cannot provide people with options that have been there and done that. These same people are trying to help you out.
Originally Posted by ntracy
http:///forum/post/2652471
Also - all three of my LFS's use this stuff all the time, and it's the same place I buy my fish, coral, and anemone. I have a good feeling that this treatment may be nothing new for my livestock
Your LFS is garbage and you are taking on their garbage habits. You need a new LFS.
Originally Posted by ntracy
http:///forum/post/2652471
With a QT, i would still need to keep my display tank void of fish for a number of weeks in order for the ich to die off, which means I'll need a larger QT to comfortably house the fish for a longer period of time.
If you had the proper QT to begin with you wouldnt have had this problem. This hobby requires patience which you seem to lack and your fish will suffer because of this. Im not tying to be hard on you.....just honest.
Originally Posted by ntracy

http:///forum/post/2652471
I'd rather treat the whole tank and be done with it.
Medicating the DT will have an effect on your fish, Invertebrates, Live rock and Live sand. You might not be able to keep inverts again because the LR will soak the medication up. There is no such thing as being done with it.
Originally Posted by ntracy

http:///forum/post/2652471
We will see what happens. If stuff dies, then I'm out hundreds of dollars and I will humbly eat my words!
Out hundreds of dollars when you say a proper QT wouldve been too expensive. You rather risk the hundreds of dollars now just so you can go through the experience? Again not bashing you but I just feel sorry for your fish...if they could speak I bet they would have something to say about the gamble on their lives.
 

ntracy

Member
Okay. Take it from my perspective. I'm trying something out and I want to post it on SWF because I'm a newbie at all of this stuff. I apologize if my posting title and content was too cocky, that is certainly not my intent. Honestly, I got excited about this Ich-Attack stuff because I had heard only good things about it... until I got onto this site.
And I'm a little disappointed at how antagonistic everyone has been.
All I can do right now is apologize if I've been bull-headed or inconsiderate. At the end of the day, I do want to be responsible. The "If stuff dies..." quote I made earlier was a joke and inappropriate so I apologize about that too.
My only request is that you research Ich-Attack before you so qucikly judge me. I've been admittedly bull-headed about this, but you must admit that some of you have been bull-headed on the other side of the fence. Have you really researched this product? If not, here's a description:
 

ntracy

Member
The efficacy and length of treatments are the same for all three organic herbal naphthoquinone treatments. These three products come in two varieties, Aquarium and Pond.
All three Kordon organic herbal treatments have two important uses -- elimination of single-celled infections, and prevention of single-celled infections from developing. Since a sizable number of fish infections are single celled, any one of these three treatments can be used when the disease is not identified and a treatment is needed in the hope that it will be effective. Also, any one these treatments can be used as a preventative, suppressing single-celled infections and allowing the immune system of the fishes to be effective in preventing the infections from developing.
A helpful advantage of these three organic herbals is that water changes are not necessary between daily treatments, saving on having to use tap water and their conditioners each day, or for marine aquariums in having to replace saltwater each day. The naphthoquinone ingredients of these organic herbals are as effective in salt water as in fresh water, providing an entirely new and effective way to handle coral reef aquariums without having to remove the marine invertebrates during treatments.
Kordon Ich-Attack™ is an easy to use treatment composed of 100% multiple organic ingredients for all types of external and epidermal single-celled infections. It's broad spectrum of activity and lack of toxicity makes Ich-Attack effective without requiring a specific diagnosis.
It stops infectious and external parasitic invasions from getting started and in turn prevents many secondary infections. In short, Ich-Attack suppresses and eliminates a wide spectrum of infections.
Ich-Attack is effective against protozoan parasites on fishes and aquatic invertebrates, whether fresh or brackish water, or marine. These comprise dozens of genera and species of fish-infecting species in fresh and salt water, each kind with distinctive characteristics in their infections. The groups include "white spot disease" and other ciliates (Ichthyophthirius in fresh water, and Cryptocaryon, Brooklynella, Trichodina in marine), and "sporozoan parasites" (for which many infectors of aquarium fish are marine).
Dinoflagellate infections treated by Ich-Attack are photosynthetic single-celled organisms which include Oodinium (velvet disease), Amyloodinium (coral fish disease), Tetrahymena, as well as other infectious dinoflagellates.
Ich-Attack works well against fungi which are very important pathogens of fishes and their eggs. These fungi include for fresh water the species of Saprolegnia, Achlya, Leptomitus, Pythium, and for marine Exophiala, Ichthyophonus, Ich-Attack is especially suitable for tropical marine aquariums containing aquatic invertebrates, because it also treats their fungal infections, while not adversely affecting coral reef animals, including corals, anemones, starfish, snails, crabs, and shrimp.
The herbals used in Ich-Attack have been selected because they have been shown to have a powerful effect against aquatic diseases, yet are far more forgiving on the animals than harsh chemicals. What Kordon has created , led by Dr. Michael Tierra - a well known herbalist whose books on natural botanical treatments are widely read - is to determine carefully which herbals can be used together to cover a wide spectrum of external fungal and other aquatic diseases. The result is completely unique, very effective, and truly easy to use.
Fungus is one of the most common infections in aquarium fishes. Fungus is recognized externally mainly as a growth on the head, body, or fins that looks like cotton or tufts, often being whitish, but also may be yellowish, gray, brown, or another color. These growths are technically called hyphae. Fungus also can be slimy on surfaces, called water molds. All of these fungal infections are technically called Oomycete infections. Fungus can also be internal lesions or granulomas appearing in fishes, including in marine tropical fishes on infected organs as raised, white to yellow nodules or patches.
Pond fishes are susceptible to the same fungal infections found in aquarium fishes. A common fungal infection in pond fish is branchiomycosis, which breaks out in fish in ponds that have high toxic nitrogenous or organic loads. The fish appear to be weak and lethargic, and may show signs of asphyxia, such as by gasping. The fungal infections occur in the blood vessels in the gills. To rid the pond of the symptoms associated with nitrogenous toxicity use Kordon Pond Amquel+ to detoxify the pond. Frequent double doses of AmQuel+ in the pond are recommended until all nitrogenous compounds are detoxified.
 

ntracy

Member
SPECIFICATIONS
Kordon Ich-Attack contains 5% active ingredients consisting of five natural organic herbals, based on their containing patented naphthoquinones. Totally free of chemicals (such as formalin and malachite) and all heavy metals, including zinc and copper. Does not affect pH of the water, or its oxygen content. Compatible with all Kordon water conditioners (NovAquas, Amquels, Fish Protector, PolyAqua, EZ4U tablets, Betta Tabs, Goldfish Tabs, ZymBac, VitaTrace, PhosRid).
MODE OF ACTION
The therapeutic action of Ich-Attack on protozoan and other infections is due to its binding with cytoplasmic structures within the cell of the infecting organisms.
DIRECTIONS FOR USE
Kordon Ich-Attack is effective:
as a treatment for external diseases, abrasions and wounds caused by protozoans, fungi, and dinoflagellates. Often there is a combination of these infections, for which Ich-Attack is a suitable treatment for all of them.
as a disease preventative for stressed fish, such as for those in quarantine
as a disease inhibitor when netting, handling or adding new fishes, amphibians, and aquatic reptiles such as turtles
Use In Fresh, Brackish or Salt Water: Shake bottle well before each use. It is recommended to remove any activated carbon from filters so that the carbon does not reduce effectiveness of the treatment. Ich-Attack does not interfere with the use of protein skimmers or UV sterilizers. However, protein skimmers remove herbal organics from the water. It is best to discontinue the use of protein skimmers during treatments with Ich-Attack.
The Standard Dose of Ich-Attack is 10 drops (from a medicinal eye dropper) per gallon or 1 teaspoon (approx. 5mL) of Ich-Attack for every 10 gallons (approx. 45.5 liters) of water. (see Kordon Article: Standard Dose for Liquid Treatments for explanation and further measurements). In regular treatment repeat dose daily until 3-4 days after the last infection is observed, including in the mouth, gills, and nostrils. Cold water conditions may require a longer treatment time.
Water changes between treatments are not required for this treatment to be effective, and are not recommended to be done. After all of the treatments are completed, make a 20% or more water change. If tap water is used, it is recommended to use Kordon NovAqua+ together with AmQuel+ to detoxify the water being added.
The protozoan infections that are eliminated by Ich-Attack include "white spot disease" (Ich) which is recognized by the very tiny white spots that are on the body and fins of the fish, and in the nostrils, gills, and mouth of the fish. Other protozoan and dinoflagellate infections are detected by their epidermal tissue destruction, including desquamation (loss of scales, shredding of skin), hemorrhaging, and respiratory difficulties.
Fungus is recognized as slimy to cottony growths on the surfaces of the fish, that usually are variously whitish, to yellowish, to brownish in color. In extreme infections the fungus kills the fishes. It is normally a secondary infection, so it is important to determine what the primary infection is.
If the fish have white spot disease, also called Ich (Ichthiophthirius), the treatment will need to be made daily every day without omission until all of the “white spots” have hatched out and their young have been killed by the treatments. This may take weeks for all of the "white spots" to hatch out. While they are in the "white spot" stage on the fish, there is no known effective treatment. Only when the "white spots" hatch out and are in a brief free-swimming stage are they susceptible to treatment. (For further information on Ich see Kordon Article: The Life Cycle of Ich).
adversely affect corals. This may be immediately, or it may be over time.
 

ntracy

Member
For Use as a Disease Preventative when no infections are observed: Treat daily for one week, and continue for a longer period as needed for stressed fishes. Be aware that it is easy to miss seeing infections, particularly when they are out of sight, such as in the mouth, gills, and nostrils of the fish. Close observation is needed, including of the fish's behavior to observe abnormal movements.
For well established or severe infections: double the dose. Continue treatments until a cure is effected. It is recommended that for double doses per day, one should be in the morning, the other later in the day. Note that some species of white spot disease (Ich) have only a few hours in the free-swimming stage at which time a treatment is effective in exterminating them. For these species of Ich treatments twice a day are essential for eliminating them to be sure none of the Ich escapes treatment. Do not skip any treatment. For Ich each white spot will produce up to 250 young (in marine species) or up to 1000 young (in freshwater species). If the Ich or other infection returns when Ich-Attack is used twice a day, it is safe to use a triple dose spaced throughout the day.
For Interconnected Multiple Aquarium Systems: Ich-Attack can be used in aquariums that are interconnected with a central filtering system and where one or more aquariums are infected while others are not. Ich-Attack will not harm the fishes, invertebrates, or plants of either the infected or non-infected aquariums. It will provide a means of stopping the spread of single-celled infections between the connected aquariums.
NUMBER OF TIMES PER DAY THAT TREATMENT IS NEEDED
It is described above, but considering the questions received on the subject it is stated again with additional information. The standard dose for Ich-Attack is once per day for a single treatment, preferably to be made at about the same time each day. If the treatment is needed for a species of white spot disease (Ich) that has a free swimming and reproductive stage that is less than a day in length, such as 18 hours, then two standard-dose treatments are needed per day, such as once in the morning, and another later in the day such as in the evening. If the species of white spot disease (Ich) has a free swimming and reproductive stage that is less than 12 hours in duration, then three standard-dose treatments are needed per day, such as once in the morning, once at midday, and the third in the evening.
The different species of white spot disease (Ich) cannot be discerned without microscopic examination and the ability to identify the different species. The simple way to determine how frequently the treatments are needed without identifying the species is --
if there are reinfections (such as new white spots are seen on the fish while the once-a-day treatments are being made) two treatments per day should be used.
If there are reinfections while the twice-a-day treatments are being made, three treatments per day should be used.
Treatments should be continued until absolutely every white spot is gone and the disease is not recurring. Since the white spots can be out of sight and easily overlooked, it is best to go three days or more in treatments after the last white spot is observed, including in the mouth, gills, and nostrils of the fish.
NUMBER OF DAYS NEEDED FOR DAILY TREATMENT
This depends upon the kind of infection, its strength, whether multiple infections are involved, etc. If Ich-Attack is being used as a preventative and against mild infection, it can be that single daily treatments are needed for a week. If the infection is more serious, and multiple, daily treatments as described above are needed for several weeks -- daily treatments as described above may be needed for a month or more.
Without water changes, over days the brownish color of the successive Ich-Attack herbal treatments will increase in discoloration of the water. This is of no harm to the fishes and invertebrates. However, If this is unacceptable, partial water changes before a treatment can be made in order to keep the coloration from intensifying in the water. Otherwise, the water will clear over days after the end of treatments, particularly if a partial water change is made at the end of the treatments. If tap water is used for the water changes, it is recommended to use Kordon's NovAqua+ and Amquel+ each time in order to detoxify the water.
 

ntracy

Member
STABILITY
Kordon Ich-Attack is stable indefinitely in the 5.0% aqueous solution, providing it is kept in a cool dark place to avoid decomposition. Refrigeration is a useful way to preserve the activity of the treatment.
COMPATIBILITIES AND TOXICITY
Kordon Ich-Attack as an organic herbal treatment is focused in its effectiveness in treating protozoan, fungal, and dinoflagellate infections. It may be an inhibitor, but is not an eliminator of infectious viruses, bacteria and multi-celled organisms. Ich-Attack is compatible with the other Kordon organic herbal products, namely Rid-Fungus® and Ich-Attack®. Ich-Attack can be used with all Kordon Water Conditioners such as the NovAquas, the AmQuels, PolyAqua®, and Fish Protector™, all Kordon Water Clarifiers (Trans-Clear® and Sea-Clear®), and all AquaTru® Water Quality Test Kits.
Regarding the toxicity of Kordon Ich-Attack to fishes and aquatic invertebrates -- it is not toxic to them. It may be that fishes and aquatic invertebrates die during treatment but numerous repeated experiments at more than ten times dosages of Ich-Attack have shown that the causes of their deaths are not the Ich-Attack treatment, nor does it contribute to the causes of deaths. What has caused the deaths besides the infecting diseases, that are too far advanced to be cured by treatment, needs to be determined by the keeper.
Ich-Attack is safe for use in all kinds of aquariums and ornamental ponds, as well as on scaleless fishes (such as loaches, elephant noses, electric eels, knife fishes and catfishes), coral reef fishes, young fish and fry, reef aquariums, aquatic plants, aquatic invertebrates (such as snails, crustaceans, corals and sea anemones), amphibians and aquatic reptiles.
However, the success of this treatment (as with all effective treatments) is dependent upon starting treatment as soon as infections are anticipated or noted. It often can be late in the extent of infection when it is noted in fishes, which may be too late to save them. As an example, for some species of white spot disease (Ich), the infection usually starts unnoticed in the mouth, gills, and nostrils of the fish, only later appearing on the outside surface of the fish when it may be too late to save their lives by treatment.
Ich-Attack will not stain sealants, ornaments, plastic or living plants, and will not unduly affect the pH or permanently discolor the water. Ich-Attack does not affect beneficial nitrifying bacteria.
Regarding Marine Tangs (surgeon fishes, acanthurids): They are prone to have extensive infections that they bring in from the wild, and for which there is no known successful treatment when the infections are too far advanced. Always quarantine tangs before putting them with other fishes (see "The Importance of Quarantining New Fish Arrivals Intended For Community Aquariums...".
Regarding Freshwater Sting Rays: Freshwater stingrays (dasyatids) have acclimated to fresh water from marine ancestors. They are fragile in aquarium keeping and prone to infection. They need to be handled carefully. Often their survival time is short in aquarium keeping, regardless of their care, and they are prone to succumb unexpectedly. If this is during treatments for an infection, it can appear that the cause of their demise is the treatment, when in fact it is not.
Regarding Coral Reef Animals: Freshwater snails and shrimp, and the coral reef animals (shrimp, crabs, coral, anemones, etc.) are compatible with Kordon Ich-Attack. It can be that in setting up a new aquarium with fishes and coral and/or anemones, that with the fishes being infected and being treated, the coral and anemones will shrivel up, sometimes dying. The organic herbal treatment may cause an initial retraction of the coral and/or anemones, but will not be the cause of their dying. Deaths are going to be due to adverse aquarium conditions, and not due to the organic herbal treatment being used for the fishes.
For example, corals and anemones may be adversely affected by the intensity of the aquarium lighting, including in new aquariums. One of the key factors in coral bleaching on natural coral reefs is in excessive light, as well as in excessive water temperature, and other natural factors. If excessive lighting is used in marine aquariums, this can
 

ntracy

Member
Now it even recommends that i quarantine all tangs before putting them into my display tank. Well I screwed that one up... and I'm having to pay the price. I figure since the tank already has the ich in it, I may as well treat the whole thing.
I do want to know though... what would be the BEST course of action? A QT, obviously, but aside from that... what? do I put ALL my fish in the QT? I mean, the ich is in the Display tank so if i remove one fish who has it the worst, it won't matter because the ich is still in the tank and will spread to the other fish.
secondly, if I remove all the fish, how long are they to live in the QT? and how long will it take for all the ich to die off in the display tank?
You've been harassing me about doing this, so now I'm asking for you to tell me EXACTLY what to do.
All I really want is to do this right... if a QT is right, then I'll do it. But I need your help and support... it's my whole reason behind getting onto SWF.
 

ntracy

Member
Originally Posted by Shaun Larlee
http:///forum/post/2652648
He really just said that........what a joke.....
Just for the record, I'm against gay marriage and voted against it. I'm married and have a daughter and I believe in the sanctity of marriage as God designed it.
 

michaeltx

Moderator
I took out all the SPecs and direction of the product.
I am going to put it as simple as I can
ich is an invert
this product kills inverts
a display tank is full of inverts from worms,pods,crabs,shrimp,snails etc..
there is no product that will only kill one particular invert.
now again I am going to repeat what I said earlier as this is only the tip of the ice berg when it comes to what your are going to go through with these tangs in such small tanks even the 90 is going to be small for 2 of them. SW fish do not stop growing to tank size they continue to grow but will open to many many other problems like HLLE and others including bacterial and parasitic infections.
This is a good site for many different reason but no one will tell you that something is going to work thats not going to. we arent here to take your money or really look down on you for your choices for your tank. but everyone here will tell you the turth no matter what the original poster of the thread wants to hear.
A QT is the best option once the main tank is setup because it will keep the parasites from even entering the tank. now the life cycle of ich is 3 different stages. only one of the stages that we see as it parasite matures it drops off the fish into the water and is platonic for awhile before it finds the host fish and renters the body for the third stage. this entire process takes about 6 weeks to complete. That is why if you use a QT you can treat the fish without having to worry about nukeing your tank.
Now this post wasnt ment to put you down or nothing like that but some background information and statment of what you deal with for ich you are not out of the water yet because it can still pop up for up to 6 weeks.
I really must urge you to think about taking the tangs back to the LFS or finding them a new home till you are set up to house these fish they are majestic and need a proper setup to thrive and not have issues as you go.
IMHO
Mike
 

michaeltx

Moderator
also you can check out this thread that Beth has put together on disease and treatments with pictures of the disease and parasites it also goes through treatments and what to look for.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/127007/faqs-fish-diseases-treatments-quarantine-health-info
Mike
 

bioneck47

Member
Also PLEASE take it from me ntracy, I've used this product 4 times when I was a newbie thinking "this product sounds great" just like you did. I ended up with a dead clam, fish that still had ich, and lots of money out of my pocket. I got it from 3 different places, so it wasn't a bad batch. Hypo is the absolute best solution to your problem, not ich attack. And I really have to agree with MichealTX, find your tangs a better home until you are absolutely ready for them, and I'm sorry to say it, but right now you're really not. I promise that I'm really trying to help you from my personal experiences and save you time and money. It probably feels like we are bullying you because everything we are telling you, you probably don't want to hear.
 
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