An Easy and Cheap Way to Cure Ich (or ick) - My Adventure with 'Ich-Attack' by Kordon

[rcreations]

I think it's possible to eliminate ick with the garlic method, as long as the tank is not overstocked. Garlic doesn't directly kill the parasites, but it denies them a host for the most part and it at least reduces the population through starvation. Repeated enough times, I believe ich was completely removed from my tank with this method.
On the other hand it makes the whole room stink like garlic, not to mention the crud from the skimmer stinks even worst.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by RCreations
http:///forum/post/2668825
I think it's possible to eliminate ick with the garlic method, as long as the tank is not overstocked. Garlic doesn't directly kill the parasites, but it denies them a host for the most part and it at least reduces the population through starvation. Repeated enough times, I believe ich was completely removed from my tank with this method.
On the other hand it makes the whole room stink like garlic, not to mention the crud from the skimmer stinks even worst.

Do you have information that proves that ich is denied a host by garlic? I have read quite a bit of information on ich and medicinal garlic. I have never seen anything that would cause anyone to come to that conclusion. If it is a link that cannot be posted on here or in a PM then please email it to me at
fishybusiness626@yahoo.com

 

[rcreations]

I will try to look for the link and if I can't post it, I will email it to you.
The article was about a woman who was studying the effects of garlic on I believe fungus infections in puffers. And her research led her to also find that garlic in the water column creates a disorienting effect for the ich parasite. Some may still find a fish host by accident, but a lot don't and end up dying. With repeated garlic medication over the course of 1-2 months, you can greatly reduce or even eliminate the parasite. It depends on how stocked your tank is and how advanced the infestation has gotten.

 

[sepulatian]

I found the article in reefkeeping magazine about her. Here is the part about garlic. You will notice that it does not prove anything but is where he myth that garlic cures ich, rather than helps with it, came from:
Here is a link to another article regarding her from the same magazine http://*****.COM
** mod edit that is another BB magizine and has their BB link within those pages.**
Treatment Option 13: Garlic
Garlic is another of the alternative treatments for Cryptocaryon to be touted lately. I have read of many people reporting using it "successfully" as a preventative. The difficult part in assessing these reports is whether the fish would have developed Cryptocaryon in the first place. And, when someone claims it to be a "cure," how can they definitively rule out natural, acquired immunity or even confusion over Cryptocaryon's life cycle.
At the very least, garlic does have some proven anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, anti-parasitic, and antiviral properties (Bartelme, 2003 and and Cortes-Jorge, 2001). I included it here because this treatment has shown enough promise to warrant further scientific evaluation. Unfortunately for us, all the real money in this industry is directed to commercial food fish, not our ornamentals. With other effective and inexpensive treatments available, I don't know if grant money will ever be directed into finding out if this alternative treatment conclusively works. Perhaps we could convince the fine marketing people at Mrs. Gordon's that they should try a pre-flavored version of their famous fish sticks by feeding the fish garlic. I can just hear the ad now, "A hint of garlic in every bite."
My biggest problem with the use of garlic is the mythology that has developed regarding it. This all began quite simply and innocently. Kelly Jedlicki was studying the use of garlic as an intestinal dewormer. For those who don't know who Kelly is, she is affectionately referred to as the "Puffer Queen" as they are her favorite fishes and oftentimes are brought into the trade polluted with various worms. As I said, she was examining the effectiveness of garlic against nematodes and cestodes on impacted puffers when she noticed a general decrease in Cryptocaryon irritans incidence. Later on, she proposed feeding garlic to fish as a preventative for Cryptocaryon irritans. From there the legend of garlic has spread. Feeding garlic to fish is now an accepted cure for Marine Ich by some individuals. Furthermore, I have read of people merely hanging cloves of garlic in their tank in an effort to ward off the parasites, like some sort of bad vampire movie. And lastly, I have recently heard of a surprising number of hobbyists who soak their corals' food in garlic in an effort to combat possible pathogens when target feeding them. It goes to show that garlic has become an all-purpose wonder drug in some peoples' eyes based on little more than anecdotal observations.

 

[tizzo]

Sep, that was written by Terry Bartleme, and on another lead, I found this also by him...
Garlic has not been thoroughly tested as a treatment against Cryptocaryon irri tans with scientific procedures the way that copper and hyposalinity have. It is easy to misdiagnose the problem and sometimes the fish's own immune system can fight off an infection without treatment. I would estimate that garlic seems to help about fifty-percent of the time with lightly infected fish. Personally, I would prefer to give my fish a better chance of recovery with a more reliable treatment
There are a lot of claims that is rids the fish of the parasite and I believe that to be true, heck, I think they even use garlic tabs to rid dogs of fleas, but --, you even said yourself that, "Once in a while you see one or two white dots when you add new fish".
If Garlic were a "cure" then you wouldn't see any. No way only one or 2 live and show up in such a small isolated area every now and then when they multiply by the thousands.
I agree with you 100% that garlic is a means of control, but it is not, or rather, has not yet been, proven to be a cure. And until it's proven, many of us will still view it as simply a means of control.

 

[1journeyman]

I cannot find anything written that talks about garlic in the water causing your fish to go into stealth mode. I'm very interested if someone can find it, shoot me a pm.

 

[sepulatian]

RCreations said to google "Kelly Jedlicki and garlic" I am finding a lot of articles but they are all saying just what we all have been saying. That the information is anecdotal. --, I did find that she does advocate the use of a quarantine tank as well as removing fish to treat them http://www.***.COM/
**mod edit this link is to another BB and isnt allowed.**

 

[tizzo]

Here's the closest thing I found. I included the entire paragraph, but will highlight what I think is the stealth mode sentence.
I'll PM you the link, if you don't want it, just delete the PM from me.

''Jedlicki first used garlic with fish as a treatment for internal parasites. She is convinced that garlic kills parasitic worms in the digestive tract, and believes there is a correlation between feeding the fish garlic and a reduced incidence of saltwater ich out breaks. Kelly is a pediatric nurse practitioner. Assisted by a veterinarian, she tested her idea on marine fish. Kelly reasons that garlic works by boosting the immune system of fish making them more resistant to infection. Perhaps fish that are liberated of intestinal worms are more resistant to external parasites and other pathogens. Another theory suggests that as the garlic is ingested it accumulates in the skin and tissues of the fish, chemically masking their scent. This repels the parasite so it no longer attacks the fish, much in the same way that it discourages flies and mosquitoes that would otherwise bite a horse.''

 

[sepulatian]

That is not evidence at all. It is a theory and nothing more.

 

[tizzo]

I know that.... But Journey said he wanted to see where people are reading about the fish going into stealth mode. I never said it was true, I just posted where it's read.
HEY!! Don't shoot the messenger, lol.
Side note...that's why I put the whole paragraph there. Cause some people see what they wanna see and some people read the whole thing...SEP. (

)

 

[tizzo]

Happy?

 

[ntracy]

Another fish died today. My Black clown. He was my favorite of all of them. I liked him because the center line on his side didn't connect (a sort of rare find in fish keeping)(see the pic in the beginning of this thread). His death was the straw that broke the camels back
I'm doing this QT thing all wrong. First of all, I didn't let it cycle, but instead loaded the tank with chemicals to keep the ammonia and trites down. The second mistake was getting a crappy filter... it was rated at 200gpm, I figured it would be good enough, but it's not anywhere near as good as the filtration on my RSM.
I'm raising the salinity today and tomorrow, and will be returning the fish to their homes once it reaches normal levels. I'm purchasing a used and cycled 60 gallon aquarium with 20 gal sump and will be putting my tang in there. I'll be taking the "preventative measures" route until I can afford to have a proper QT (not a pittly little 20gal one)... I'm thinking at least a 30gal, and it NEEDS a skimmer and at least 2x the flow in the tank than what I have now which is a rio 400 at the bottom and the HOB at the top.
I don't want any more fish to die in this QT environment, and I'll take the garlic route until I can learn/afford to do the QT properly. I think I'm doing the more responsible thing by: getting them out of a QT that I'm not doing right, putting them in larger environments, and strengthening their immunity with a garlic and vitamin supplement which I soak their food in.
The death of the clown hit hard. This sounds so stupid, but I'll say it anyway... It feels like I'm spitting in the face of God when I flush His creations down the toilet. I mean these fish are so beautiful and unique... colors and shapes, the symbiosis of different species (cleaner shrimp, anemone and clowns, pom pom crab)... and here I am flushing some of it down the toilet. I was talking to a lady at a mom 'n pop fish store the other day, and she was like "see that Mandarin Goby? Boy, God was having a good day when He made that." Whatever your beliefs, you must admit that most saltwater fish, corals, and inverts are truly unique and beautiful, and whether you believe there is a God or not, it's still tragic to destroy them because of your own stupidity and carelessness.
Also, how awesome is it that we have a fully alive piece of the ocean in our homes? I mean it's totally mind boggling. I can spend thousands on a Caribbean vacation and go snorkeling for a day, or I can have a freaking piece of the freaking ocean in my house, looking at it every day. The balance of it all is amazing too, how the bacteria break down the detritus, and the hermits and snails do the cleaning. The flame shrimp and cleaner shrimp literally ride on the sides of the fish and clean them. It's so cool. All I need to do is provide electricity for the circulation and feed them (along with WC's and filtration maintenance, of course).
Call me an idiot, call me what you want, but I really love this hobby.

 

[rcreations]

Guys, I'm all for a QT. In fact I'm currently hypoing my 2 small lions, in a 38gal QT. What I was saying was that in SOME situations, where someone puts too many fish in a small QT or a QT without proper filtration for the amount of fish, or one that is not cycled properly, in this case garlic is the better solution. As I said in my first post, a QT is great but only a small percentage of people actually have a proper QT running. This is why I see on the forums all these fish dying in QT. I bet a lot of these fish would still be alive if they were left in the DT and treated with garlic.
Case in point...
I'm doing this QT thing all wrong. First of all, I didn't let it cycle, but instead loaded the tank with chemicals to keep the ammonia and trites down. The second mistake was getting a crappy filter... it was rated at 200gpm, I figured it would be good enough, but it's not anywhere near as good as the filtration on my RSM.
Sorry ntracy, I don't mean to use you as an example. But your situation fits what I said above perfectly. I think a lot of the fish that died in QT, would still be alive if they were left in the DT and treated there with garlic or heck, even kick ich would have been better than a QT that wasn't ready.
As for the article, it's not evidence. All this garlic stuff is theory. There have been no official studies done, so everything you read about it is theory, nothing more. I myself am convinced it works because I tried it and even I have to admit that it'll only work in some situations. If the fish are already infested with ich, it probably won't work. It has to be done as soon as you see a few white specks for it to work.
A proper QT is still the best. But if one isn't available, there are other ways to control ich.

 

[ntracy]

There have been countless people with the same experience. We can call it a theory because it hasn't been scientifically proven, but if you look at a lot of the people who keep saltwater fish as their hobby, you'll see that they believe garlic cures ich, and that's good enough for me. It's kind of funny, this forum is the only one i've come across that's been so he!!bent on QT's... I've been on other forums since I started my QT and pretty much everyone said I'm going over the top, including my LFS's, who all just suggested garlic, and when I told them I wanted to setup a QT, they were like "well, ok sure you can do that if you want to get that elaborate."
Dottie from Aquatic Village in Ventura has been keeping saltwater fish for over 40 years. She told me to just use garlic... it'll go away. A part of me wishes I had listened to her. Maybe then I wouldn't be flushing hundreds of dollars worth of beautiful fish down the toilet.
A suggestion to anyone reading along to this thread. In the future, if you're going to push for a QT, only suggest it if they promise to cycle it. Don't recommend a QT if the person doesn't cycle. Those two should ABSOLUTELY go hand in hand. I hate that i was told it was OK to setup the QT and just load it with chemicals (amquel, etc)... obviously that's not the case
(I'm not talking about Tizzo or Sep in this posting, they did the best they could to help me)

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Tizzo
http:///forum/post/2669119
I know that.... But Journey said he wanted to see where people are reading about the fish going into stealth mode. I never said it was true, I just posted where it's read.
HEY!! Don't shoot the messenger, lol.
Side note...that's why I put the whole paragraph there. Cause some people see what they wanna see and some people read the whole thing...SEP. (

)
Sorry Tizz, my comment was not directed at you. It was an observation, that's all.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by RCreations
http:///forum/post/2669244
Guys, I'm all for a QT. In fact I'm currently hypoing my 2 small lions, in a 38gal QT. What I was saying was that in SOME situations, where someone puts too many fish in a small QT or a QT without proper filtration for the amount of fish, or one that is not cycled properly, in this case garlic is the better solution. As I said in my first post, a QT is great but only a small percentage of people actually have a proper QT running. This is why I see on the forums all these fish dying in QT. I bet a lot of these fish would still be alive if they were left in the DT and treated with garlic.
Case in point...
Sorry ntracy, I don't mean to use you as an example. But your situation fits what I said above perfectly. I think a lot of the fish that died in QT, would still be alive if they were left in the DT and treated there with garlic or heck, even kick ich would have been better than a QT that wasn't ready.
As for the article, it's not evidence. All this garlic stuff is theory. There have been no official studies done, so everything you read about it is theory, nothing more. I myself am convinced it works because I tried it and even I have to admit that it'll only work in some situations. If the fish are already infested with ich, it probably won't work. It has to be done as soon as you see a few white specks for it to work.
A proper QT is still the best. But if one isn't available, there are other ways to control ich.
Garlic does help. No one questions that at all. We have several members here that are using it. If there is minimal ich, the tank is large, there are cleaning inverts working, garlic is a help

Originally Posted by ntracy
http:///forum/post/2669323
There have been countless people with the same experience. We can call it a theory because it hasn't been scientifically proven, but if you look at a lot of the people who keep saltwater fish as their hobby, you'll see that they believe garlic cures ich, and that's good enough for me. It's kind of funny, this forum is the only one i've come across that's been so he!!bent on QT's... I've been on other forums since I started my QT and pretty much everyone said I'm going over the top, including my LFS's, who all just suggested garlic, and when I told them I wanted to setup a QT, they were like "well, ok sure you can do that if you want to get that elaborate."
Dottie from Aquatic Village in Ventura has been keeping saltwater fish for over 40 years. She told me to just use garlic... it'll go away. A part of me wishes I had listened to her. Maybe then I wouldn't be flushing hundreds of dollars worth of beautiful fish down the toilet.
A suggestion to anyone reading along to this thread. In the future, if you're going to push for a QT, only suggest it if they promise to cycle it. Don't recommend a QT if the person doesn't cycle. Those two should ABSOLUTELY go hand in hand. I hate that i was told it was OK to setup the QT and just load it with chemicals (amquel, etc)... obviously that's not the case
(I'm not talking about Tizzo or Sep in this posting, they did the best they could to help me)
Do you know why we are he!! bent on QT's? Because you can actually eradicate the parasites from your display! That is why. I have had my home tank up since January 07, About a year and a half. I owned an LFS before that. It was small scale. I got a divorce and my ex still has it. Ich is a PITA (I don't mean the organization). My personal fish have gone from tank to tank, at home, I have moved the tanks around, I have had heaters conk out on me. Believe me, my fish have seen stress. They have never once shown a single spot. Ich is not in my display. Ich is a parasite though. It dies without a host. If you are buying a 60 then hypo all of your fish in there before you add the rock and sand. Get ready now and add sponge filters to your display. Who cares if ich gets on those, they will be hypoed anyway.

 

[rcreations]

btw ntracy, sorry about the loss of your clown. I know it's hard. A while ago I lost a flame wrasse because it jumped out of the tank at night. When I woke up and the lights came on, I knew something was wrong because it always was right up front waiting to be fed. So I looked around and there it was on the floor behind the tank. I was bummed the whole week.

 

[tizzo]

ntracy, I am sorry for your losses. Any route you choose, hopefully we will help you, if you want.
The route your going, I just wanna say one thing, PLEASE do not raise the salinity in as little as 2 days, it WILL most likely kill them. Raising the specific gravity .001 every 8 hours is about the pace you wanna go.

I know it seems slow, but any faster will have a detrimental consequence on their kidneys resulting in the same type of consequence on their lives.
Hobbiests "routinely" kill their fish bringing them OUT of hypo, so please, do it slowly.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Tizzo
http:///forum/post/2669744
ntracy, I am sorry for your losses. Any route you choose, hopefully we will help you, if you want.
The route your going, I just wanna say one thing, PLEASE do not raise the salinity in as little as 2 days, it WILL most likely kill them. Raising the specific gravity .001 every 8 hours is about the pace you wanna go.

I know it seems slow, but any faster will have a detrimental consequence on their kidneys resulting in the same type of consequence on their lives.
Hobbiests "routinely" kill their fish bringing them OUT of hypo, so please, do it slowly.
Thanks Tizzo, I completely missed that! That wouldn't have been good.

 

[ntracy]

Ok I returned the QT today with the HOB (it was the biowheel one and the biowheel never turned, the harness pieces were missing so they took it as a broken-return item).
Anyway, got my $98.67 back - Yes!
Everyone is doing well. I have the hippo tang, two clowns (I bought yesterday), and the butterfly in the 34g, and i put all the little ones - pseudo, six-line, chromis, baby hippo tang (for now) in the 14g. Once I get the 95g up and running, I'll put the adolescent hippo in there, and the baby hippo in the 34g.
Before I put the fish in the 14g, I cleaned it out... I shook up the sand and all this green and brown stuff came up... I siphoned it into a few buckets and let the crap settle, then threw it back. is this normal or just a product of bad circulation?