anybody paying attention to what's going on in Honduras?

pontius

pontius

Active Member
basically, they have a far left leaning president who is growing unpopular with the middle and upper class because it's becoming clear that he's a socialist (sound familiar at all?).
so he decides that he wants to stay in power longer than is constitutionally allowed. so he decides to try to change the constitution himself. kind of set himself up in a nice little dictatorship.
well, the electoral college, congress, and supreme court all tell him that's not happening. there are already laws ordering how the constitution can be amended, and the president stomping his feet and throwing a hissy ain't one of them.
so the president ignores the electoral college, congress, and supreme court and tells his top military general to go forward with the balloting to change the constitution. basically, to ignore the constitution in order to amend the constitution. the general refuses. the general is fired.
the supreme court tells the president that the general's firing was illegal and he is reinstated.
so the president then turns to his good buddy, Hugo Chavez, who ensures him that he has Venezula's full support in illegally amending Honduras' constitution.
so the Honduras supreme court gives the legal order to physically remove the president. he is removed, and exiled from the country.
hurray for the people of Honduras, standing up to save their country's constitution.
except that the guy is still supported by Hugo Chavez.
and a guy named Barack Obama. that's right. our president has thrown his full support behind a socialist who wants to set up a dictatorship against the will of his constituents, supreme court, congress, military, and constitution.
people really need to open their eyes to this clown in the white house.
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
Originally Posted by Pontius
http:///forum/post/3078295
basically, they have a far left leaning president who is growing unpopular with the middle and upper class because it's becoming clear that he's a socialist (sound familiar at all?).
so he decides that he wants to stay in power longer than is constitutionally allowed. so he decides to try to change the constitution himself. kind of set himself up in a nice little dictatorship.
well, the electoral college, congress, and supreme court all tell him that's not happening. there are already laws ordering how the constitution can be amended, and the president stomping his feet and throwing a hissy ain't one of them.
so the president ignores the electoral college, congress, and supreme court and tells his top military general to go forward with the balloting to change the constitution. basically, to ignore the constitution in order to amend the constitution. the general refuses. the general is fired.
the supreme court tells the president that the general's firing was illegal and he is reinstated.
so the president then turns to his good buddy, Hugo Chavez, who ensures him that he has Venezula's full support in illegally amending Honduras' constitution.
so the Honduras supreme court gives the legal order to physically remove the president. he is removed, and exiled from the country.
hurray for the people of Honduras, standing up to save their country's constitution.
except that the guy is still supported by Hugo Chavez.
and a guy named Barack Obama. that's right. our president has thrown his full support behind a socialist who wants to set up a dictatorship against the will of his constituents, supreme court, congress, military, and constitution.
people really need to open their eyes to this clown in the white house.
HI there,
I have read some on it. Where have you read that president Obama is in support of a dictator ship or in keeping the Honduras' expresident?
 
pontius

pontius

Active Member
Originally Posted by locoyo386
http:///forum/post/3078300
HI there,
I have read some on it. Where have you read that president Obama is in support of a dictator ship or in keeping the Honduras' expresident?
it's in every news article concerning this story. including the ones from the more liberal agencies.
 
lion_crazz

lion_crazz

Active Member
Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said Monday the United States believes the unrest in Honduras "has evolved into a coup," but the U.S. is not demanding that deposed President Manuel Zelaya be restored to office.
She also said the military coup has not triggered an automatic cutoff of U.S. aid to Honduras.
Clinton told reporters at the State Department that a delegation from the Organization of American States will be heading to Honduras as early as Tuesday "to begin working with the parties" on the restoration of constitutional order.
White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said President Barack Obama has not spoken with Zelaya since the Honduran leader was forced into exile. Gibbs said it was premature to talk about whether the U.S. would withdraw its ambassador or seek to cut off aid from Honduras.
Clinton stopped short of saying the Obama administration would demand the return to power of the deposed president, who was forcibly removed from the country on Sunday morning by the Honduran military.
A reporter asked whether the administration would insist that Zelaya be restored to power.
"We haven't laid out any demands that we're insisting on, because we're working with others on behalf of our ultimate objectives, which are shared broadly," Clinton replied.

"So we think that the arrest and expulsion of a president is certainly cause for concern that has to be addressed. And it's not just with respect to whether our aid continues, but whether democracy in Honduras continues."

Clinton cited a "fast-moving set of circumstances" in Honduras that require close monitoring.
"Our immediate priority is to restore full democratic and constitutional order in that country," Clinton said at her first news conference since breaking her right elbow in a fall at the State Department June 17.
"As we move forward, all parties have a responsibility to address the underlying problems that led to yesterday's events in a way that enhances democracy and the rule of law in Honduras," she added.
While stating that circumstances in Honduras had "evolved into a coup," Clinton added that it was a fast-moving situation with an uncertain outcome. "So we are withholding any formal legal determination. But I think the reality is that having expelled the president, we have a lot of work to do to try to help the Hondurans get back on the democratic path that they've been on for a number of years now," Clinton said.
She said the United States is looking at its aid program for the country and considering the implications of the forced removal of Zelaya for continued American assistance.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1
 
pontius

pontius

Active Member
The military solution drew condemnation at the United Nations, and Honduras was suspended by the OAS. Many called it a huge step backward for democracy, and no nation has recognized the new government. President Barack Obama has united with Chavez and conservative Colombian President Alvaro Uribe in insisting on Zelaya's return.
Without OAS membership, the isolated interim government faces trade sanctions and the loss of hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidized oil, aid and loans for the impoverished nation.
*******************
to call something a "coup" is to call it illegal. it wasn't illegal. what was illegal was for the president to try to change the constitution without the consent of the congress or the supreme court.
what the UN, Obama, and Venezuala are going to do is use sanctions to force Honduras to allow this socialist to become a dictator.
he didn't have the balls to stand up to Iran, but he's more than willing to stand up to the people of Honduras on behalf of his socialist pals.
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member

Originally Posted by Pontius
http:///forum/post/3078326
President Barack Obama has united with Chavez and conservative Colombian President Alvaro Uribe in insisting on Zelaya's return.
Where in there is the desire to return him into presidency?
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090629/..._honduras_coup
"TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras – Police and soldiers clashed with thousands of protesters outside Honduras' national palace Monday, leaving at least 15 people injured, as world leaders from Barack Obama to Hugo Chavez demanded the return of a president ousted in a military coup.
Leftist leaders pulled their ambassadors from Honduras and Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega said El Salvador, Nicaragua and Guatemala would cut trade with neighboring Honduras for at least 48 hours. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez called for Hondurans to rise up against those who toppled his ally, Manuel Zelaya.
"We're ready to support the rebellion of the Honduran people," Chavez said, though he did not say what kind of support he was offering.
Protests outside the presidential palace grew from hundreds to thousands, and soldiers and police advanced behind riot shields, using tear gas to scatter the protesters. The demonstrators, many of them choking on the gas, hurled rocks and bottles as they retreated. At least 38 protesters were detained, according to human rights prosecutor Sandra Ponce."
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
In Washington, Obama said the United States will "stand on the side of democracy" and work with other nations and international groups to resolve the matter peacefully.
"We believe that the coup was not legal and that President Zelaya remains the democratically elected president there," Obama said.
"It would be a terrible precedent if we start moving backwards into the era in which we are seeing military coups as a means of political transition rather than democratic elections," he added. "The region has made enormous progress over the last 20 years in establishing democratic traditions. ... We don't want to go back to a dark past."
This is what I read, and in there it says that it will support democratic election, thus if it indeed Zelaya was not re-elected back into presidnecy, how could Obama request be be reinstated into presidnecy?
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by locoyo386
http:///forum/post/3078378
This is what I read, and in there it says that it will support democratic election, thus if it indeed Zelaya was not re-elected back into presidnecy, how could Obama request be be reinstated into presidnecy?
The President wanted to change the law to allow him to seek another term in office. Their legislature says he can't do it, their Supreme Court said he couldn't do it but he ordered the ballots to be printed anyway. Now Obama couldn't come out in support of a coup but he also shouldn't have shown support to a power hungry leaded. Something along the lines of "Why we can't condone a coup the situation leading up to it is also very troubling blah blah blah..." Obama calling for the President to be reinstated without addressing his Napoleonic attitude and actions is troubling.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
If you want to talk about Democratic process, look at the entire picture of the situation. Zelaya is by no means a 'squeaky clean' President. He's been accused of 18 alleged criminal acts including treason and failing to implement more than 80 laws approved by Congress since taking office in 2006. Zelaya also refused to comply with a Supreme Court ruling against his planned referendum on whether to hold an assembly to consider changing the constitution. But instead of prosecuting him or trying to defeat him at the ballot box, his political opponents sent masked soldiers to fly Zelaya out of the country at gunpoint, and Congress installed Micheletti in his place. So which political group is a Dictator here - Zelaya or Micheletti?
This is why the OAS and the US are getting involved (If you call it a US involvement). They may not agree with Zelaya's viewpoints and principles, but they are trying to protect the Democratic process in this country. You want to oust Zelaya, do it with a vote. Don't grab the guy in the middle of the night, throw him on a plane, and say "See ya, don't come back or your dead."
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3078488
If you want to talk about Democratic process, look at the entire picture of the situation. Zelaya is by no means a 'squeaky clean' President. He's been accused of 18 alleged criminal acts including treason and failing to implement more than 80 laws approved by Congress since taking office in 2006. Zelaya also refused to comply with a Supreme Court ruling against his planned referendum on whether to hold an assembly to consider changing the constitution. But instead of prosecuting him or trying to defeat him at the ballot box, his political opponents sent masked soldiers to fly Zelaya out of the country at gunpoint, and Congress installed Micheletti in his place. So which political group is a Dictator here - Zelaya or Micheletti?
This is why the OAS and the US are getting involved (If you call it a US involvement). They may not agree with Zelaya's viewpoints and principles, but they are trying to protect the Democratic process in this country. You want to oust Zelaya, do it with a vote. Don't grab the guy in the middle of the night, throw him on a plane, and say "See ya, don't come back or your dead."
Not sure if that country has a impeachment provision or not but this guy was term limited and is trying to set things up to run again. Basically trying to pull a CHavez without having the support of the idiots in the country who "voted" to give chavez dictatorial powers. I believe he had ordered the military to take some actions regarding the election and they responded by throwing him out of the country.
As long as the military allows the new election to take place I don't think this is a bad thing. Maybe a coup isn't the best way to go about this but it shows other countries you don't hav to roll over when a power mad leader wants to take absolute control.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3078566
Not sure if that country has a impeachment provision or not but this guy was term limited and is trying to set things up to run again. Basically trying to pull a CHavez without having the support of the idiots in the country who "voted" to give chavez dictatorial powers. I believe he had ordered the military to take some actions regarding the election and they responded by throwing him out of the country.
As long as the military allows the new election to take place I don't think this is a bad thing. Maybe a coup isn't the best way to go about this but it shows other countries you don't hav to roll over when a power mad leader wants to take absolute control.
A close friend of mine runs a manufacturing plant down there in El Progresso. I've been down there a few times, and I can tell you that it has a very large military presence. When I went down, I stayed in a very nice hotel. However, the only way I could get around was by either my friend driving me, or taking their company van to the plant. I was told to not venture out on my own after I arrived back at my hotel. I tried walking across the road to a mall once, and the hotel concierge stopped me and said it wasn't a good idea for me to go out at night alone. There were many cases of Americans getting kidnapped, or the military stopping Americans in their cars while traveling. Everywhere you go down there, there arm armed military guards. When you drive down many of the roads, the military have 'checkpoints' where they stop you and ask for proper papers and documentation. We went to a market area one morning, and there was a lot of commotion going on. We asked this woman who was serving us tortillas what was going on, and she said there was some sort of skirmish that had occurred in the main plaza last night, and they were looking for the body for the decapitated head they found on a park bench. On the way to the plant, my friend pointed to a pile a brush on the side of the road. He told me there was a body under the brush, and people will just cover someone up and leave them there until the authorities can come retrieve the body. Everyone over there rides either bicycles or donkey carts. One afternoon we were heading back to the hotel, we stopped at a light and I looked over to see this woman riding a bike with this 'package' duct taped to the crossbar. When I looked closer, the 'package' was a small baby (Guess you have to carry them somehow). Yea, Honduras is a real booming country...
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by locoyo386
http:///forum/post/3078300
HI there,
I have read some on it. Where have you read that president Obama is in support of a dictator ship or in keeping the Honduras' expresident?
lol, are you really arguing what Obama has said the official U.S. position is.

This whole situation is very interesting. It is kind of nice to not see Honduras give up its government to one moron, like in Chaves's case... But it will be very interesting to see what ends up happening.
Personally, I'd have let the guy back in, arrest him, "try" him and hang him for treason... Solve that problem. If I were in the government's shoes.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3078690
lol, are you really arguing what Obama has said the official U.S. position is.

This whole situation is very interesting. It is kind of nice to not see Honduras give up its government to one moron, like in Chaves's case... But it will be very interesting to see what ends up happening.
Personally, I'd have let the guy back in, arrest him, "try" him and hang him for treason... Solve that problem. If I were in the government's shoes.
'W' would claim Zelaya was harboring nukes and would've invaded the place.
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3078488
If you want to talk about Democratic process, look at the entire picture of the situation. Zelaya is by no means a 'squeaky clean' President. He's been accused of 18 alleged criminal acts including treason and failing to implement more than 80 laws approved by Congress since taking office in 2006. Zelaya also refused to comply with a Supreme Court ruling against his planned referendum on whether to hold an assembly to consider changing the constitution. But instead of prosecuting him or trying to defeat him at the ballot box, his political opponents sent masked soldiers to fly Zelaya out of the country at gunpoint, and Congress installed Micheletti in his place. So which political group is a Dictator here - Zelaya or Micheletti?
This is why the OAS and the US are getting involved (If you call it a US involvement). They may not agree with Zelaya's viewpoints and principles, but they are trying to protect the Democratic process in this country. You want to oust Zelaya, do it with a vote. Don't grab the guy in the middle of the night, throw him on a plane, and say "See ya, don't come back or your dead."
I guess it does not take a democratic proccess to be able to do that, just power. Too bad people get blame for the wrong things when trying to do the wright thing.
By the way I am in no shape or form trying to defend Zelaya in trying to get back the presidency, nor do I think Obama is trying to put him back in presidency. I believe they are trying ot bring him back to the Honduras as there ahould be no reason for exile. Also I do not think Zelaya has enough power to bring him self back into presidency, similar thing happend in Mexico.
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3078780
Never knew liberating 25 million iraqis was a waste of money...
I do not think that the war was useless, nor do I beleive the true intent of the was was to liberate the iraqi people. Opression happends in many different forms, and there are countries far more in need of liberations than Iraq was. I will not see the U.S.A. and it's allies go liberate them in my life time, and maybe not ever.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by locoyo386
http:///forum/post/3078813
I do not think that the war was useless, nor do I beleive the true intent of the was was to liberate the iraqi people. Opression happends in many different forms, and there are countries far more in need of liberations than Iraq was. I will not see the U.S.A. and it's allies go liberate them in my life time, and maybe not ever.
Hey a poor despot is a whole lot less scary than a really rich one...
Who would you be more worried about, some war lord with enough money to buy 100 AK-47s and mow people down, or a war lord that had the money to make sarin Gas and stick it on a cruise missile?
 
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