Anyone with 120 Gallon Reef

florida joe

Well-Known Member
If I understand what you are suggesting correctly, we would end up with two seperate overflows and two seperate returns, and I would thing that again, this would cause a major headache when trying to balance the two.
why would you want to balance the two to each other. He now has two independent filtration systems each feeding off their own designated overflow and returning water with separate independent lines. IF he goes with two pumps of the same GPH and valves as you suggest he can simply adjust the height of water in each of the tanks in his basement with the valves. makes piping a snap with almost no bends
 

cam78

Active Member
Randy to answer your question I would prefer to have the fuge in the 55 and the sump separate. I have this 30 Gallon (36x16x12) Oceanic Reef Ready Sump (model 2), so I assume the best thing to do is use this solely for the filtration and the 55 solely for the fuge. I don't think I need baffles in the 55 do you?
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
I see a major flaw in my two pump idea. If one pump fails how do we prevent the tanks serviced by that pump from overflowing or risk running the working pump dry. Unless there is a cost efficient device that will turn off the working pump if there is a failure with the other it looks like it a one pump deal
 

cam78

Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3207408
I see a major flaw in my two pump idea. If one pump fails how do we prevent the tanks serviced by that pump from overflowing or risk running the working pump dry. Unless there is a cost efficient device that will turn off the working pump if there is a failure with the other it looks like it a one pump deal
So am I supposed to be follwing Randy's design? Is this what will work?
 

cam78

Active Member
If so, I am a little confused as to what the 55 is actually doing. Does the tank with the LR drain into the sump along with the 55? Both tanks are draining into the sump? Then the sump is obvioulsy draining into the display. Got that. How big should the LR tank be? More than 10 gallons? also how is the water getting into the 55?
Sorry for all the questions, I just want to TOTALLY understand it, obvioulsy.
 

scopus tang

Active Member
Originally Posted by CAM78
http:///forum/post/3207464
If so, I am a little confused as to what the 55 is actually doing. Does the tank with the LR drain into the sump along with the 55? Both tanks are draining into the sump? Then the sump is obvioulsy draining into the display. Got that. How big should the LR tank be? More than 10 gallons? also how is the water getting into the 55?
Sorry for all the questions, I just want to TOTALLY understand it, obvioulsy.
The 55 is serving two purposes; one, its increasing the water volume of the entire system, and two, its your fuge. Yes, both tanks are draining into opposite ends of the sump, this allows you to control the rate of flow through your fuge independent of the sump. The LR tank can be as large or small as you want it to be. The larger the volume of the tank, the more LR it will hold. Water drains into the 55 off of the secondary line that comes off the primary drain (thought I included it in the drawing, have to double check, yep its there). Since flow rate through the secondary line and thus through the fuge is completely controled by the ball valve, you can increase or decrease the flow rate as desired - so long as you don't overload the overflows).
Originally Posted by florida joe

http:///forum/post/3207408
I see a major flaw in my two pump idea. If one pump fails how do we prevent the tanks serviced by that pump from overflowing or risk running the working pump dry. Unless there is a cost efficient device that will turn off the working pump if there is a failure with the other it looks like it a one pump deal
Good catch - I didn't even think about that one.
 

cam78

Active Member
Also are there dividers or baffles in the LR tank and the 55 gallon. Do all these lines get submerged in the water or do you leave them up high to pour in? Does it even matter?
The secondary lines are the one coming off of the main display into the 55, got that. Now the line that runs from the display to the LR tank, there is a secondary line also draining into the sump. Is that correct? Have water draining from the LR tank and the secondary also just draining into the sump? Is my sump capable of this. I know it is predrilled and everything but not sure where as of right now.
 

scopus tang

Active Member
Originally Posted by CAM78
http:///forum/post/3207520
Also are there dividers or baffles in the LR tank and the 55 gallon. Do all these lines get submerged in the water or do you leave them up high to pour in? Does it even matter?
The secondary lines are the one coming off of the main display into the 55, got that. Now the line that runs from the display to the LR tank, there is a secondary line also draining into the sump. Is that correct? Have water draining from the LR tank and the secondary also just draining into the sump? Is my sump capable of this. I know it is predrilled and everything but not sure where as of right now.
Carlo there are no dividers or baffles in the LR tank or the 55 gallons. Line coming into the LR tank should have some type of water spreader to distribute water over the top of the blue filter pad that sits on an egg crate platform (removes any large particles or macro algae that make their way through the overflow). The line into the 55 I would end just above the water line or maybe even below it to minimize air bubbles. The secondary line that runs from the LR tank to the sump is simply a by-pass, that is only there in case you need to take the LR tank off-line to service it. Otherwise, this line would normally remain closed off. Your sump will handle the flow, so long as the return pump capacity matches up with the overflow capacity. Only so much water can make its way through the overflows of the DT in a given amount of time (this flow rate is affected by Ts, Ys, bends, and pipe dimensions), so long as this amount is matched by the pump capacity of the return pump, the overflows can't override the pump. Thats why pump selection is so important. Keep in mind however that if you get a undersized pump, the overflows can only carry out the water that is being pumped into the DT that exceeds its normal volume, hence an undersized pump reduces the return flow rate. Thus why Joe said we needed to get all the plumbing figured out prior to determining the return pump size (which I hope Joe is going to be around for - because he's much better at that sort of thing than I am).
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Carlo I missed something looking at Randy's drawing. I was under the assumption that you were going to use an external pump.IMO the only way to go. Now as far as the pump GPH and overflow GPH. You want the overflows to have a greater GPH then the pump. (ALWAYS). In your situation we are going to have to figure out after you mock up all your piping the head pressure. Then find a pump that can handled that head pressure BUT still give you a GPH less then the overflows. That is one reason I do not like to use valves to control flow back into the basement, because it is hard to calculate the true rate of flow you are getting. Hard but not impossible.You and we have to just take our time.
Looking at the PVC that came with your setup. It seems to me that you will be using a Durso standpipe system for your return are you familiar with this setup ?
 

scopus tang

Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3207645
Carlo I missed something looking at Randy's drawing. I was under the assumption that you were going to use an external pump.IMO the only way to go. Now as far as the pump GPH and overflow GPH. You want the overflows to have a greater GPH then the pump. (ALWAYS). In your situation we are going to have to figure out after you mock up all your piping the head pressure. Then find a pump that can handled that head pressure BUT still give you a GPH less then the overflows. That is one reason I do not like to use valves to control flow back into the basement, because it is hard to calculate the true rate of flow you are getting. Hard but not impossible.You and we have to just take our time.
Looking at the PVC that came with your setup. It seems to me that you will be using a Durso standpipe system for your return are you familiar with this setup ?
Joe, I simply showed the RP as internal, it could just as easily be an external pump. Personally I also think he would be better off with an external pump (less heating of the water).
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Randy I really think in his application finding a pump with the right head and GPH rate is going to be much easier in the external models so he should not even consider a submersible
 

cam78

Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3207645
Carlo I missed something looking at Randy's drawing. I was under the assumption that you were going to use an external pump.IMO the only way to go. Now as far as the pump GPH and overflow GPH. You want the overflows to have a greater GPH then the pump. (ALWAYS). In your situation we are going to have to figure out after you mock up all your piping the head pressure. Then find a pump that can handled that head pressure BUT still give you a GPH less then the overflows. That is one reason I do not like to use valves to control flow back into the basement, because it is hard to calculate the true rate of flow you are getting. Hard but not impossible.You and we have to just take our time.
Looking at the PVC that came with your setup. It seems to me that you will be using a Durso standpipe system for your return are you familiar with this setup ?
To tell you the truth Joe I am not familiar with any of this. Plumbing I can do, and figure out but I can't say that I have ever done a project like this. I see the directions with the overflows and it seems self explanatory. Who knows though?
 

cam78

Active Member
Originally Posted by Scopus Tang
http:///forum/post/3207658
Joe, I simply showed the RP as internal, it could just as easily be an external pump. Personally I also think he would be better off with an external pump (less heating of the water).
Yes I would prefer an external Do they pull the water through a drilled hole?
 

scopus tang

Active Member
Originally Posted by CAM78
http:///forum/post/3207687
Yes I would prefer an external Do they pull the water through a drilled hole?
Preferably to minimize head loss, but you can plumb them in over the top with a drop pick-up (would require the pump to sit up on a platform).
 

cam78

Active Member
Also Randy my question is this. With the OF line running from the display has more of a direct line to the LR tank (Which is definitely going to be smaller than a 55) than the refuge. Isn't the water gonna follow the way of least resistance (the LR tank)? What is gonna make the water wanna make that angle to the 55 and not straight down? Should I maybe switch the tanks around, 55 and LR? I'll prob want more water in the 55 than in the 15 or 20.
Also what size lines should I be using? PVC that is.
Third: The overflow on the 55, can that just be drilled with a PVC fitting? If so how high do I drill the hole? Because I see that is the only one that really does not have a ball valve to reduce or increase flow.
Last question: On the over flow line coming from the display, those two lines on an angle, is that a ball valve too? I assume I need one the there for tank maintenance, or emergency shut off correct?
 

scopus tang

Active Member
Originally Posted by cam78
http:///forum/post/3207718
also randy my question is this. With the of line running from the display has more of a direct line to the lr tank (which is definitely going to be smaller than a 55) than the refuge. Isn't the water gonna follow the way of least resistance (the lr tank)? What is gonna make the water wanna make that angle to the 55 and not straight down? Should i maybe switch the tanks around, 55 and lr? I'll prob want more water in the 55 than in the 15 or 20.
yes, you want more water volume in the 55, but no you don't want the volume of flow through in the 55 that you are getting in the LR tank. In otherwords, you want the water to follow the path of least resistence and flow through the LR rather than the fuge. Think of it this way; you're getting a set volume of water out of your overflows at any given time, the majority of that water flows quickly through the LR (bacteria doesn't need long exposure to absorb nutrients), then to the sump (a portion is skimmed - but obviously not all), and then back via the return pump to the tank. Only a small portion is being diverted into the fuge so that the water spends more time in the fuge, allowing the algae more time to absorb the nutrients and remove them completely from the water column. You will control the volume of flow through the fuge by adjusting the ball value on the main return line (constricting the line size) and thus divert the water into the fuge. If you want a faster flow through rate on the fuge, you close the valve more, if you want a slower rate, open it up more.
also what size lines should i be using? Pvc that is.
pvc line size is determined by your overflows, you don't what to constrict the normal flow - typically they are 1 1/4" or 1 1/2". Match the pvc to your overflow tubing.
third: The overflow on the 55, can that just be drilled with a pvc fitting? If so how high do i drill the hole? Because i see that is the only one that really does not have a ball valve to reduce or increase flow.
yes. On a fuge that choice is somewhat up to you, personaly i would drill it so that when the angled PVC L with a short extension was allowing water to flow out of my tank, the water level was above the plastic ring around the upper portion of the tank. In otherwords, height will be determined by the size and extension length of your pvc. I would drill it about and inch or 2 below the plastic rim (less chance of it breaking out to the edge), and then run a short pvc extension (which you can make shorter or longer as you need to). You don't want much water flowing out of the fuge after the power shuts off, because you don't want to flood your sump.
last question: On the over flow line coming from the display, those two lines on an angle, is that a ball valve too? I assume i need one the there for tank maintenance, or emergency shut off correct?
i didn't include one there, although you can, because by shutting down the other three ball valves, you've effectively shut off all flow as well, so it is somewhat redundant. However, it would obviously be quicker and easier to turn off only one valve instead of three.
hth.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Time to figure in couplings. Also pumps do two things pull water or push water. if your pump is below the water line it will push water if it is above the water line it will pull water. IMO go with your pump below the water line. If you go with one above you need to get a self priming pump. If you don't and you loose power and you are not around to prime the pump when you regain power again you can burn the pump out by running it dry
 

cam78

Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3207781
Time to figure in couplings. Also pumps do two things pull water or push water. if your pump is below the water line it will push water if it is above the water line it will pull water. IMO go with your pump below the water line. If you go with one above you need to get a self priming pump. If you don't and you loose power and you are not around to prime the pump when you regain power again you can burn the pump out by running it dry
What about couplings? What do you mean figure them in?
By the way, you think a 20 Gal tank would be suffice for the LR tank?
Ever drill tanks b4? I didn't.
2nd edit: Looking at external pumps to get an idea money wise and so on, is it safe to say I will be looking at something like a Dart pump something like the Barracuda?
 

scopus tang

Active Member
Originally Posted by cam78
http:///forum/post/3207827
what about couplings? What do you mean figure them in?
i was hoping joe was going to jump in and answer this one, i assume that he was talking about the coupling used to connect the pump to the sump, but don't know for sure.
by the way, you think a 20 gal tank would be suffice for the lr tank?
i would think that would indeed be sufficient.
ever drill tanks b4? I didn't.
no, i have all mine drilled by the glass shop, i paid for the bit, they do the drilling and charge me a minimal fee.
2nd edit: Looking at external pumps to get an idea money wise and so on, is it safe to say i will be looking at something like a dart pump something like the barracuda?
yes, i would assume that is about what you are looking at, but again, lets dry run all the plumbing if possible, then we'll know for sure how many elbows, ys, ts, ect are in the lines and how high the head height needs to be and then we can accurately determine the size pump you will need.
hth
 
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