Arizona's (other) New Law

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3293331
At least they require permits. This limits the availabilty somewhat as to who is willing to go tthrough the procedure to obtain the permit. I had a co-worker who was authorized to teach the required class here in San Antonio. When they first offered the course, he was swamped with requests, and was offering the classes almost every day of the week. Six months later, he was down to one class a week. Now he hardly gets any requests to teach. Was is because people lost interest, or because of the deterrent from getting the extensive background check performed and then sitting in the class? Arizona is gonna let any Joe Schmo that owns a gun the abilty to walk around with it stuck in their pants. No class, no anything, except the basic two or three day waiting period you have to go through to buy a gun.
It's called complacency. After a while, no one will care if they see someone walking around with a gun showing. Will they be able to walk into stores, movies, banks, malls, bars, churches, offices with the gun? That'll be fun. Couple guys get wasted in a bar, get ticked off at one another, and BAM! If they didn't have the capability to have a gun on their person at the time, cooler heads may prevail, and there would be a different outcome.
Don't get me wrong, I would prefer a permit being required but if it came down to no concealed carry or concealed carry for everyone no permit required I'd chose the latter in a heart beat.
 

mantisman51

Active Member
With all due respect, I would doubt very seriously there have been that many road rage shootings n the entire U.S., much less Arizona alone. Second, most Western states allow a loaded gun to be carried in a car already-in plain sight. Third, outside Phoenix and Tucson inner cities the illegals are the biggest cause of murder here and it ain't road rage related. Sounds like made up stats by Brady's organization.
 

mantisman51

Active Member
With respect to training, the Constitution states "a well regulated militia...". So I am not opposed to training requirements, but it will ALWAYS be used by libs as the first step down the "ban all guns" slope.
 

reefraff

Active Member
It's amazing the ignorance surrounding the gun debate in general, mostly from the anti gun crowd.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3293419
Once again, all these hypotheticals. Look, if you want to talk something that really kills people? Why not just ban alcohol? I'm gonna venture to guess (outside of war) more people die of causes related to alcohol every year. Than a gun...
Jesus streb, you bring up this stupid analogy anytime a gun debate ever arises. Try a new one. Call them hypotheticals if you want, but the reality is, they can and do occur.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by mantisman51
http:///forum/post/3293433
With respect to training, the Constitution states "a well regulated militia...". So I am not opposed to training requirements, but it will ALWAYS be used by libs as the first step down the "ban all guns" slope.
Yea, I know. You're the typical gun-toting, NRA card holding, "You can pry my gun from my cold dead hands", gun advocate. Throw all the statistics up that you want, but the fact remains that anything is possible when you open up the floodgates as wide as you will with this new law.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3293486
It's amazing the ignorance surrounding the gun debate in general, mostly from the anti gun crowd.
I'm assuming you're directing this at me. What's laughable is that I probably own, or have owned, more guns that you ever had in a lifetime. I HAVE a concealed license in the State of Texas (thanks to my co-worker giving me a free class). However, I rarely take my gun out in public because I don't live a life of paranoia that everybody is out to get me, or someone may come up to me and try to commit a crime using a gun. If I were ever thrown into a situation where a crime was being committed using a gun, I'd prefer to let the legal authorities handle it. I've seen the scenarios where Johnny Citizen tried to be the hero, and they ended up dead because they 'froze' when the critical moment occurred to 'commit to killing another human being'. I'm fully capable of handling any situation regarding the protection of my home. I guarantee I would have no hesitation of shooting an individual if they did break into my home for any reason. Don't believe me, try breaking into my house unannounced, and I'll prove it to you.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by mantisman51
http:///forum/post/3293432
With all due respect, I would doubt very seriously there have been that many road rage shootings n the entire U.S., much less Arizona alone. Second, most Western states allow a loaded gun to be carried in a car already-in plain sight. Third, outside Phoenix and Tucson inner cities the illegals are the biggest cause of murder here and it ain't road rage related. Sounds like made up stats by Brady's organization.
You need to read the news more often. I don't sit around reading statistics of how many times a gun is used during a road rage incident. However, as I said, I've sat and watched my local news at least three times in the last month where they reported a road rage incident with someone using a gun. There's some guy on trial right now because of it. I could give a rats ass if you believe it or not. I'd just suggest you be more cautious while driving down the road, no matter where you live. They days of 'flipping someone off' or retaliating against an aggressive driver has ended for me. I'm not going to take the chance that the idiot may or may not have a gun in their car. Not worth risking my life over.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3293505
Jesus streb, you bring up this stupid analogy anytime a gun debate ever arises. Try a new one. Call them hypotheticals if you want, but the reality is, they can and do occur.
If you're truly worried about danger, then at least be honest with yourself, and see what is more dangerous....
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3293511
I'm assuming you're directing this at me. What's laughable is that I probably own, or have owned, more guns that you ever had in a lifetime. I HAVE a concealed license in the State of Texas (thanks to my co-worker giving me a free class). However, I rarely take my gun out in public because I don't live a life of paranoia that everybody is out to get me, or someone may come up to me and try to commit a crime using a gun. If I were ever thrown into a situation where a crime was being committed using a gun, I'd prefer to let the legal authorities handle it. I've seen the scenarios where Johnny Citizen tried to be the hero, and they ended up dead because they 'froze' when the critical moment occurred to 'commit to killing another human being'. I'm fully capable of handling any situation regarding the protection of my home. I guarantee I would have no hesitation of shooting an individual if they did break into my home for any reason. Don't believe me, try breaking into my house unannounced, and I'll prove it to you.
Not directed at you, it was a response to Mantis bringing up the fact "libs use regulation as a first step towards banning all guns comment". If people would look past the phony statistics the anti gun crowd throws bans would be so overwhelmingly rejected we gun owners would have nothing to worry about. As far as number of guns owned I go for Quality, not quantity but I have and do own a fair number of weapons. Hell, I was just looking yesterday. Turns out I can now easily convert my AR 15 to shoot everything from a 22 to 50 cal BMG. I really don't need anything but 1 lower and 5 uppers and I'm set
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3293542
If you're truly worried about danger, then at least be honest with yourself, and see what is more dangerous....
Not more dangerous for me. I rarely drive around past 10PM anymore. All the drunks leave the bars around midnight. San Antonio Police actually just kicked up this major DWI task force, where they have this rolling med trailer that they can immediately take blood samples of suspected DUI drivers. They've put a DUI Task Force together where they have 12 - 24 specialized officers driving around the known areas where DUI's occur. But watching my local news, I see way more incidents involving shootings than I do DUI incidents. Just last week, we had some guy walk into his stepfathers house, kill him and two innocent victims, then he killed himself. Two drunks got into an argument last night, and one went to his car, grabbed his gun, and shot the other guy. South Side had two drive-by incidents in one night. Just another week in the city of San Antonio.

I also stay out of the South and West Sides of San Antonio, where most of the gun violence occurs. Know your environment, and you don't have to worry about dangerous situations.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3293513
You need to read the news more often. I don't sit around reading statistics of how many times a gun is used during a road rage incident. However, as I said, I've sat and watched my local news at least three times in the last month where they reported a road rage incident with someone using a gun. There's some guy on trial right now because of it. I could give a rats ass if you believe it or not. I'd just suggest you be more cautious while driving down the road, no matter where you live. They days of 'flipping someone off' or retaliating against an aggressive driver has ended for me. I'm not going to take the chance that the idiot may or may not have a gun in their car. Not worth risking my life over.
It is a crime in Colorado to flip someone off or yell at them while driving...... Seriously. I don't remember the last time I've heard of a road rage incident here (other than Jake Plummer) but I assume this law is a result of incidents.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3293547
Not more dangerous for me. I rarely drive around past 10PM anymore. All the drunks leave the bars around midnight. San Antonio Police actually just kicked up this major DWI task force, where they have this rolling med trailer that they can immediately take blood samples of suspected DUI drivers. They've put a DUI Task Force together where they have 12 - 24 specialized officers driving around the known areas where DUI's occur. But watching my local news, I see way more incidents involving shootings than I do DUI incidents. Just last week, we had some guy walk into his stepfathers house, kill him and two innocent victims, then he killed himself. Two drunks got into an argument last night, and one went to his car, grabbed his gun, and shot the other guy. South Side had two drive-by incidents in one night. Just another week in the city of San Antonio.

I also stay out of the South and West Sides of San Antonio, where most of the gun violence occurs. Know your environment, and you don't have to worry about dangerous situations.
I typically carry a gun in the truck. If I happen to walk out and realize I didn't have it in there it isn't like I am going back in for it. If I thought the area I lived in was that dangerous I wouldn't live here. I just understand the idea that the police stop less than 5% of all crimes. Not the kind of odds I like. I will ALWAYS have it with me on road trips. To many deselate areas to drive through without a weapon.
 

mantisman51

Active Member
Bionic, I can tell you are passionate in you're dislike of firearms and I can respect that. But the statistics that are paramount to you, gun violence, shows the states with the most liberal gun laws have the lowest gun crime: Idaho and Arizona. The states with the strictest gun laws have the highest gun crime: New York, New Jersey, Washington D.C. It is even more striking when you break it down by cities. Your belief that gun availability causes gun violence cannot be supported and is based out of a fear that I can't understand, because I trust my fellow citizens. I know there have always been and always will be criminals with weapons. But armed citizens gives me great comfort. You want a shocker bionic? I haven'y carried a gun on me or in my car regularly for years. I take a weapon to my property on the border when I know I'll be there at night, but otherwise they stay in my safe and one in my nightstand. So I am not arguing this because I am a sweaty, bunker-living redneck. I believe those citizens who carry weapons make all of us safe and I feel safer when I see my fellow citizens walking with their piece on their hip because I know a criminal wouldn't be doing that. Your world of fear is foreign to my way of thinking.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Who said I disliked firearms? I have a concealed carry license myself in Texas. Granted I only went to the class because my co-worker offered it for free to several of us. But I rarely make it a point to carry my pistol. I just don't see the logic behind opening up allowing carry and concealed to anyone that owns a gun. Especially when they aren't required to do any training to actually understand what it means to carry a concealed weapon, and what you can actually do in regards to using said weapon in any confrontational situation.
You get into an argument with some guy, and he yells, "I'm gonna kill you!", and moves towards you unarmed. Do you have the right to pull out your weapon and shoot the guy?
You're driving down the road, and someone cuts you off. You pull up next to him, and he rolls down his window and throws a bottle at your car and it cracks your window. Do you have the right to pull out your weapon and shoot him?
You're a woman walking down the street. A guy runs past you and grabs your purse. He's running away and his back is facing you. Can you pull out your weapon and shoot the guy in the back? How about just a warning shot telling him to stop or you will shoot?
You might answer these questions one way, and someone else may answer them completely different. Get the proper training, and you should all pretty much answer the questions the same way.
 

reefraff

Active Member
All the above is why I don't like the no permit deal. Not that I have any sympathy for someone who gets shot for stealing a purse but the idea of some innocent likely going to jail for doing what he thought was right does. Of couse I personally think gun law and basic gun safety should be taught in every school in every state. If they call require kids to be taught Homosexuality is acceptable which goes against religious beliefs of many, a protected belief under the first amendment then I think the anti gun crowd doesn't have a gripe comming if their kids get a little basic gun safety instruction and learn under which circumstances deadly force is acceptable.
 

mantisman51

Active Member
I guess my perspective is a little different because when I took hunters safety in H.S. to get my hunting license, we also had to learn all of the above as part of the gun safety. BTW in Idaho and Arizona it is legal to use deadly force to defend property, not just when your life is threatened. Yeah it's scary if your a thief, but only a thief has to worry about it. So even with the scenarios you mentioned, they happen everyday here but there is little violence here compared to other parts of the country. If lack of training were that big of a deal, we should be up to our necks in corpses. Again, I say have faith in your fellow citizens. Common sense is more common than you seem to think.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by mantisman51
http:///forum/post/3293716
Again, I say have faith in your fellow citizens. Common sense is more common than you seem to think.
Well they did elect Obama. And he remarkably still have a mid 40's approval rating.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by mantisman51
http:///forum/post/3293716
I guess my perspective is a little different because when I took hunters safety in H.S. to get my hunting license, we also had to learn all of the above as part of the gun safety. BTW in Idaho and Arizona it is legal to use deadly force to defend property, not just when your life is threatened. Yeah it's scary if your a thief, but only a thief has to worry about it. So even with the scenarios you mentioned, they happen everyday here but there is little violence here compared to other parts of the country. If lack of training were that big of a deal, we should be up to our necks in corpses. Again, I say have faith in your fellow citizens. Common sense is more common than you seem to think.
You have faith in your fellow citizens, when probably 20% of them are illegal aliens? Good luck with that.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3293785
You have faith in your fellow citizens, when probably 20% of them are illegal aliens? Good luck with that.
Illegal alliens ARE NOT CITIZENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Top