Attn: Canister filter users

[vkuroczka]

Ok, so I have decided to switch out my canister filter and upgrade. I have had my tank for about 4-5 years now and have had a fluval 404 (80 gal FOWLR). Since about Jan. my nitrates have remained high in the 80 + area. I have done multiple water changes, taken my filter out and scrubbed it entirely, added live sand, basically done everything with no changes in the nitrates. So i have purchased a Fluval fx5 (FYI I can't do a sump/ refug. cause there isn't any room under my tank due to the way its built) anyways, how do I go about switching from one to the other...... any ideas would be helpful, my tank has been set up for a while so do I need to keep some of my media from the previous filter???? help???

 

[mr_x]

you have live rock to hold your bacteria. i would just take the old one off and hook up the new one. i would leave all biological media out of the filter, and keep it to sponge pads and possibly carbon.

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by Mr_X
http:///forum/post/2690644
you have live rock to hold your bacteria. i would just take the old one off and hook up the new one. i would leave all biological media out of the filter, and keep it to sponge pads and possibly carbon.

I pretty much agree; nothing does a better job on nitrates than LR.Make sure you have enough cycled LR before stopping the canister bio-filter.SeaChem Matrix can be a good helper in a canister too. BTW, I know a lot of folks disagree; but nitrates at 80ppm will not hurt fish at all; probably contribute to diatom & algae problems though.

 

[mustangcaleb]

the tank i inherited has a eheim filter on it. but from what i understand, cannister filters are nitrate factory since all they do is hold poo and pump the rest of the tank water through it. so i plan to get more LR and get rid of my cannister filter completely. i do plan on building a sump/refugium one day, but i hope to move fairly soon. ill just wait for the new place to set that up. also, my 55g tank i want to use for the sump/refugium wont fit under my tank, so what better reason to come up with a weekend project and build a new stand. ill design this one the way I want it.

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by MustangCaleb
http:///forum/post/2690751
the tank i inherited has a eheim filter on it. but from what i understand, cannister filters are nitrate factory since all they do is hold poo and pump the rest of the tank water through it. so i plan to get more LR and get rid of my cannister filter completely. i do plan on building a sump/refugium one day, but i hope to move fairly soon. ill just wait for the new place to set that up. also, my 55g tank i want to use for the sump/refugium wont fit under my tank, so what better reason to come up with a weekend project and build a new stand. ill design this one the way I want it.
This is a very poor description of how a properly maintained canister works. No matter where waste is in a system, water flows through it.

 

[flricordia]

Just clean the canister filter media at least every 2 weeks. Yhou really do need a refugium. Look into a hang on back type. If you have fish and feed daily without a fuge you are pretty much stuck with nitrates unless you use a nirtate reduction filter but that in itself can become a pain because of the constant monitoring needed to keep it from producing hydrogen sulfide.
A heavily stocked fuge with cheato would more than likely solve all your nitrate problems.

 

[mustangcaleb]

Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/2690807
This is a very poor description of how a properly maintained canister works. No matter where waste is in a system, water flows through it.
very poor exactly, thats why i want to eliminate it all together. i clean/replace the filter pads every week or 2 and every single time the bottom filter is caked, dooky brown. without the filter, the waste will go to the LR, and the LR doesnt have a tube of flow going directly thru it at like 450 gph or whatever it flows. also the LR will not store the waste as the cannister does, the bacteria will it breakdown. then it will be removed thru a good water change routine.
now ill probably keep the filter around so i can run it occassionally with carbon and such, but i dont want to rely on it for the tanks sanitation needs

 

[mustangcaleb]

Originally Posted by Flricordia
http:///forum/post/2690812
Just clean the canister filter media at least every 2 weeks. Yhou really do need a refugium. Look into a hang on back type. If you have fish and feed daily without a fuge you are pretty much stuck with nitrates unless you use a nirtate reduction filter but that in itself can become a pain because of the constant monitoring needed to keep it from producing hydrogen sulfide.
A heavily stocked fuge with cheato would more than likely solve all your nitrate problems.
now i may be wrong, but does the filter media not do the same thing as the LR? and how do you recommend cleaning the media? from what i was understanding, everytime you clean it out, you lose alot of the beneficial bacteria. i do have the filter media in mine, but just bc it was recommended. i never had the media fully explained to me.

 

[mr_x]

please, someone correct me if i'm wrong-
the solid waste you see on the filter pads will not be broken down by the live rock. it needs to be removed. removed by waterchanges, by skimming, and/or by mechanical filtration. DOC's (dissolved organic compounds) are just that- dissolved. large clumps of food need to be removed, refugium or not. that "dooky" brown stuff will cover your live rock just like it covers your filter pads if you don't stay on top of it somehow.
if you wanted to use the cannister, you'll be fine if you clean it regularly(i'd suggest weekly).
inside the cannister, you have pads, and bio media, like bio balls or ceramic rings. this is where the bacteria colonizes, and that's the part you aren't supposed to clean in the filter. meanwhile, a FOWLR, is using live rock as it's surface area for bacteria, thus, you don't need the cannister bio media.
i believe that in a heavily fed, or stocked tank, that bio media gets overwhelmed, and then coated with "dookey brown stuff", and starts losing the battle.

 

[ynotme4886]

There is nothing wrong with using a canister filter as long as you keep it clean.
I use one for convenience.... its a great way to add media like carbon. I also use mine to propel my chiller. I find it keeps the chiller cleaner cause all the gunk comes out in the canister and does not go through the chiller.
I cleaned my canister out tonight....The only thing in my canister is sponges, chemi-pure and sometimes I run a phosphate remover or a denitrator. I replace my sponges monthly and at least rinse them out every week My canister was loaded with pods. I scooped them out... fed some to the fish and added some to one of my refugiums.
A canister has a place and a use but must be maintained just like anything else or it can become a problem area.

 

[srfisher17]

Lots of good info in the above two posts. How to use a canister (or any power filter) depends a lot on how much mature LR you have. The foam filter is much like a skimmer; it will get rid of organic material before the bacteria need to; assuming the pad/sponge/whatever is kept clean. If you don't have enough LR, the bio-media in a power filter will do a good job eliminating ammonia and nitrite; which are lethal to fish. A power filter will not generally remove nitrates; generally harmless to fish; not so for coral/inverts. Unless you have enough LR; its up th water changes to keep nitrates down. There are some "imitation" LR products that help and it seems sugar dosing (a whole new topic) has a lot of promise in lowering nitrates.

 

[vkuroczka]

Originally Posted by Mr_X
http:///forum/post/2690644
you have live rock to hold your bacteria. i would just take the old one off and hook up the new one. i would leave all biological media out of the filter, and keep it to sponge pads and possibly carbon.
thanks!

 

[stdreb27]

Just a side note, nitrifying bacteria won't remove nitrates. They consume NH3 poop out NO2 then other bacteria consumes that then poops out NO3. Nothing eats that, plants consume it, hence the popularity of macro algea like chaeto.
I ran a fx5 on my 180 for about 2 years. I really liked it, I cleaned it religiously and never had any NO3 problems. The nice thing about it was that it scrubbed the water and kept it very clear, and I could run carbon or whatever else in there too. Was really usefull.

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2691787
Just a side note, nitrifying bacteria won't remove nitrates. They consume NH3 poop out NO2 then other bacteria consumes that then poops out NO3. Nothing eats that, plants consume it, hence the popularity of macro algea like chaeto.
I ran a fx5 on my 180 for about 2 years. I really liked it, I cleaned it religiously and never had any NO3 problems. The nice thing about it was that it scrubbed the water and kept it very clear, and I could run carbon or whatever else in there too. Was really usefull.
Not quite correct. Media (usually LR) cultures another type of bacteria that thrive in oxygen-poor areas and DO convert nitrate (NO3) to nitrogen gas. Anaerobic bacteria, if I remember right, but, hey--I'm getting old. A system with a large amount of mature LR, and proper maintenance, will not have a nitrate problem. IMO, this is the main reason for the using so much LR in the 1st place. There are many easy ways to handle ammonia and nitrite; but LR is, by far, the best media to culture the bacteria that will feed on nitrate. There are a few products that imitate LR by being able to grow nitrate "eating" bacteria and are generally used in the filter system.They actually work quite well, IME, if directions are precisely followed.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/2693090
Not quite correct. Media (usually LR) cultures another type of bacteria that thrive in oxygen-poor areas and DO convert nitrate (NO3) to nitrogen gas. Anaerobic bacteria, if I remember right, but, hey--I'm getting old. A system with a large amount of mature LR, and proper maintenance, will not have a nitrate problem. IMO, this is the main reason for the using so much LR in the 1st place. There are many easy ways to handle ammonia and nitrite; but LR is, by far, the best media to culture the bacteria that will feed on nitrate. There are a few products that imitate LR by being able to grow nitrate "eating" bacteria and are generally used in the filter system.They actually work quite well, IME, if directions are precisely followed.
I don't buy that the anaerobic bacteria will actually consume NO3 to make a difference. Not because it doesn't but, because they don't have enough contact with new water to make a difference in a tank. (why I don't like really deep sand beds either.)
But you are right, I wasn't thinking about the anaerobic bacteria when I was posting that, I was thinking aerobic bacteria.

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2693141
I don't buy that the anaerobic bacteria will actually consume NO3 to make a difference. Not because it doesn't but, because they don't have enough contact with new water to make a difference in a tank. (why I don't like really deep sand beds either.)
But you are right, I wasn't thinking about the anaerobic bacteria when I was posting that, I was thinking aerobic bacteria.
That's why so much LR and proper water flow are critical.If LR didn't significantly reduce nitrates; I wouldn't use so much of it. I have a 180 FOWLER (rather heavily stocked) with 200 # of LR and I don't really worry about nitrates. But, the LR keeps nitrate at under 10 ppm with minimal water changes. I only change 20 gal per month in this tank. I'm in the process of setting up a new , big reef tank; where nitrates are a big deal, and I expect the LR to handle most of the nitrate control; it always has in the past. IMO, having LR keeping nitrates under control is one of the benchmarks of good reef keeping and one of the major innovations that made reef tanks possible in the first place.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/2693183
That's why so much LR and proper water flow are critical.If LR didn't significantly reduce nitrates; I wouldn't use so much of it. I have a 180 FOWLER (rather heavily stocked) with 200 # of LR and I don't really worry about nitrates. But, the LR keeps nitrate at under 10 ppm with minimal water changes. I only change 20 gal per month in this tank. I'm in the process of setting up a new , big reef tank; where nitrates are a big deal, and I expect the LR to handle most of the nitrate control; it always has in the past. IMO, having LR keeping nitrates under control is one of the benchmarks of good reef keeping and one of the major innovations that made reef tanks possible in the first place.
I never thought about it, but in my old 180 I never got a reading on nitrates after the cycle, and I definitely didn't do enough water changes. Maybe 2 10 gallon changes every month. I always had healthy chaeto, but maybe the 260 lbs of liverock did more than I thought...

 

[aztec reef]

Hola, lets recap: theres Nitrifiying bacteria and Denitrifiying bacteria, both of which play a vital role in tank's nitrogen cycle efficiency.
It starts with nitrification: ammonia turned to nitrites, nitrites turned to nitrates..period...this bacteria take host in aerobic areas suach as top layers of sandbeds, hob filters, liverock surfaces,skimmers ect..
Denitrification is the convertion of nitrate to nitrogen gasses, also known as microbubbles that rise up to the water's surface and into the atmosphere..this bacterias take host in anaerobic areas such as deep sandbeds and deep inside liverocks and other stagnent surface areas.
If this two are balanced with your bioload there would be 0 nitrates...Regardless of cheato or no cheato.
cheato only thrives when your ecosystem provides enuf impure mollecules in water column to fertalize it..

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
http:///forum/post/2693916
Hola, lets recap: theres Nitrifiying bacteria and Denitrifiying bacteria, both of which play a vital role in tank's nitrogen cycle efficiency.
It starts with nitrification: ammonia turned to nitrites, nitrites turned to nitrates..period...this bacteria take host in aerobic areas suach as top layers of sandbeds, hob filters, liverock surfaces,skimmers ect..
Denitrification is the convertion of nitrate to nitrogen gasses, also known as microbubbles that rise up to the water's surface and into the atmosphere..this bacterias take host in anaerobic areas such as deep sandbeds and deep inside liverocks and other stagnent surface areas.
If this two are balanced with your bioload there would be 0 nitrates...Regardless of cheato or no cheato.
cheato only thrives when your ecosystem provides enuf impure mollecules in water column to fertalize it..

Exactly!