Beginner Questions - need beginner answers :)

[sueandherzoo]

I'm reading and reading and reading until my eyes cross and my head spins but I'm still not quite grasping the concept of the "cycle" process. I bought a 12-gallon Instant Ocean kit (it will become a quarantine tank in the winter - if I can successfully raise a fish or two in this small one and I'm as addicted as I think I will be then I'll upgrade to a 55 gallon) and I have a thin layer of live sand on the bottom, 5 pounds of base rock and 12 pounds of live rock. I have the light on and the pump and filter going and it all looks gorgeous and all water tests came back great. Of course it's only been 48 hours so I'm expecting it's going to do some spiking and peaking and then when it levels off again I will be good to go with a clean-up critter or two.
So while I'm being good and being patient I'm trying to envision in my head exactly what it is I'm waiting to happen. I know we want good bacteria to grow and I know we're trying to jump start that but why and how will good bacteria start to grow when there's nothing much in there? I don't expect a lot of die off - I bought live rock at the LFS and got it right in the tank. Can someone explain to me (in simple terms) what I'm waiting to happen? I've read about using damsels or ghost feeding or using a piece of raw shrimp and I guess that's to get bad stuff in the water so that it will encourage the good stuff to grow? I'm not sure why we WANT an ammonia spike.
Forgive me for asking about the very basics but I'm not good at just following instructions.... I need to understand WHY I'm doing something and how the process works. Right now I'm looking at the tank thinking "why would anything happen in there - there's nothing but water and rocks and stones running through a filter?"
Oh, that brings me to another question: should I take the carbon pack out while I'm doing the cycling? Do I want to get things clean or do I want them to get dirty?
I've got outdoor ponding down to a science with my mechanical filtration and biological filtration and skimmers and bogs and beneficial bacteria, etc. but this is throwing me.
Thanks in advance.

 

[gmann1139]

Basically what you are trying to do is introduce a source of rot (ammonia) into the tank.
I personally recommend using a shrimp, hung from the top of the tank, inside the foot of a pantyhose, for 3 - 5 days. Test every other day after you put the shrimp in, and once the ammonia level has reached 1.0, take the shrimp out.
Continue testing ammonia every other day, and start testing nitrite as well. Once both have peaked, and gone back to 0, test your nitrates. Then perform a large (~50%) water change.
During this time, you should be getting your other parameters (temp, salinity, pH, and alkalinity) into normal ranges as well.
At this point, you will be ready for a clean-up crew. Add a couple hermits and snails. Feed them a little (like half a postage stamp) every day to keep them happy.
Personally, I usually wait two weeks with the CUC, perform another 10 - 20% Water change, then get my first fish.
Since you have a 12, and you're only putting two fish in, put them in at the same time. Normally you would just introduce one, but both at the same time should reduce aggressiveness.
Now you have to start feeding the fish. I would start with the 1/2 postage stamp per day, and go up if the fish are eating it all.
For reference, I have a pair of clowns in a 12, and 1/2 a postage twice a day is all I feed, if I'm feeding flake.
Keep an eye on your ammonia and nitrite in the first two weeks. It will depend to creep up, and the tank will re-cycle from the added bio-load.
Is that enough info for now?

 

[nordy]

Welcome to the Boards!
What will happen is that an ammonia spike will occur, then as your bacteria culture becomes established, and seeds your live and base rock, nitrites and then nitrates will also spike. The big picture is that in order to cycle your tank, you need to feed the good bacteria. That's what the ammonia spike is all about-the ammonia is what feeds the bacteria and starts the process that results in nitrates which are not poisonous to livestock, but still have to be dealt with-that's another story!
Ghost feeding, including raw shrimp, or cycling w/damsels (not recommended!) supplies the ammonia that feeds the bacteria and starts the cycle. The bacteria is already there-you don't have to add it or worry about having it in your tank. What happens in the cycling process is that the ammonia feeds that bacteria and eventually your good bacteria will establish itself and handle the animal and food waste normally produced in any fish tank. Live rock, unless it is fully cured, will also provide "food" for the bacteria as its bacteria/algae/etc dies off and thereby provides food for your good bacteria and is then repopulated with good, live becateria. Your base rock will soon be cultured with the good bacteria.
Bacteria cultures will adjust to the level of "food" (meaning mostly animal waste) that they receive. In an established tank the good bacteria is on your live rock and in whatever type of filter media you have and fixes the ammonia produced by your livestock. When you add fish/cuc/etc to your tank, the increased amount of animal waste produced will provide more food form the bacteria and consequently increase the ability of your bacteria to remove the bad stuff (ammonia) from the tank. This is why, especially in a new tank, that you do not want to add too much of a bioload too quickly as it can overwhelm the ability of your tanks biological filtration to remove the ammonia.
You are right to be "good and patient"- this hobby is a place where this is more than a virture-it is a necessity if you want to avoid making the expensive mistakes that I, and many other folks in the hobby, have made.
I don't have experience w/ponds, but some of the concepts are the same-mechanical filtration to physically remove debris, algea, animal waste, etc, etc, and then the biological filtration to remove/fix the animal waste that must be dealt with in any closed biological system.
Keep a close eye on you tank parameters and especially the ammonia spike that will happen-you need to have that happen so that your tank gets cycled and established.

 

[robdog696]

You've got everything down to a science. You're just missing one piece of information. Saltwater fish are ten times more sensitive to ammonia than freshwater fish. So what you are waiting on, like you said, is for the beneficial bacteria to spread to every available surface area in your tank. I'm sure you noticed how porous liverock is. This allows ten times more surface area for that bacteria to grow. So you've got to wait ten times as long for it to spread and for the ammonia to get ten times lower.
To answer your next question, the reason it is able to spread on its own is because stuff you can't see is dieing off of your liverock. This "die-off" is creating ammonia, which the nitrifying bacteria feeds on. As Gmann mentioned, ghost feeding will speed up the process.
To answer another of your questions, you want the ammonia to go up so that you will know when you have enough bacteria to "filter" the ammonia in your tank. Without a problem, we don't know if the solution is working.
And to answer your last question, the carbon isn't needed but won't hurt. You're still trying to keep things clean. You're just feeding the nitrifying bacteria. Any organic carbon will feed them as it breaks down. I prefer to use flakes high in algae content, but just about anything will work.
Good luck, and welcome to swf.com!

 

[sueandherzoo]

Very good info, and explained in a way I can understand - thank you. But it brings me to another question (of course):
After adding some "rot" to the tank and waiting for the spikes and levels to take place, why do I then want to CHANGE 50% of it? I can understand a small water change but after it's cycled and ready for it's first inhabitants, isn't changing that much going to set me back some?
I'm sure it makes sense and I'm sure I'll laugh at myself in a year but it almost seems comical to work at and wait for this "cycle" to happen to then just throw out the water that's finally done what you want it to do. (Darned newbies!)
Sue

 

[gmann1139]

Originally Posted by SueAndHerZoo
http:///forum/post/2716683
Very good info, and explained in a way I can understand - thank you. But it brings me to another question (of course):
After adding some "rot" to the tank and waiting for the spikes and levels to take place, why do I then want to CHANGE 50% of it? I can understand a small water change but after it's cycled and ready for it's first inhabitants, isn't changing that much going to set me back some?
I'm sure it makes sense and I'm sure I'll laugh at myself in a year but it almost seems comical to work at and wait for this "cycle" to happen to then just throw out the water that's finally done what you want it to do. (Darned newbies!)
Sue

Reduce nitrates. You've created a lot of NH4 and NO2, so the NO3 levels will be relatively high.

 

[robdog696]

Originally Posted by SueAndHerZoo
http:///forum/post/2716683
Very good info, and explained in a way I can understand - thank you. But it brings me to another question (of course):
After adding some "rot" to the tank and waiting for the spikes and levels to take place, why do I then want to CHANGE 50% of it? I can understand a small water change but after it's cycled and ready for it's first inhabitants, isn't changing that much going to set me back some?
I'm sure it makes sense and I'm sure I'll laugh at myself in a year but it almost seems comical to work at and wait for this "cycle" to happen to then just throw out the water that's finally done what you want it to do. (Darned newbies!)
Sue
Topic of a lot of disagreement. Personally, I agree with you. Leave it alone and let it cycle. The point of the cycle is to grow bacteria and let IT remove the nitrates. In my personal opinion if you ever have to do a water change because of nitrates then you're either overstocked, you don't have enough liverock, you're overfeeding, or something died in your tank. The reason we should be doing water changes is to replace alk, calcium, O2, etc in the water. Not to lower nitrates. Sometimes in smaller tanks or if you're purposely keeping more fish than normal in your tank then water changes will be required. But I'm saying if you're aiming for an appropriately sized, stocked, and "self-sustaining" aquariam then nitrates should not be a problem.

 

[gmann1139]

Originally Posted by Robdog696
http:///forum/post/2716703
or something died in your tank.
I know it didn't die in there, but if you use the shrimp, it did rot in there.

 

[keebler]

Originally Posted by Robdog696
http:///forum/post/2716703
Topic of a lot of disagreement. Personally, I agree with you. Leave it alone and let it cycle. The point of the cycle is to grow bacteria and let IT remove the nitrates. In my personal opinion if you ever have to do a water change because of nitrates then you're either overstocked, you don't have enough liverock, you're overfeeding, or something died in your tank. The reason we should be doing water changes is to replace alk, calcium, O2, etc in the water. Not to lower nitrates. Sometimes in smaller tanks or if you're purposely keeping more fish than normal in your tank then water changes will be required. But I'm saying if you're aiming for an appropriately sized, stocked, and "self-sustaining" aquariam then nitrates should not be a problem.
Let's see the other side: Unfortunately denitrifying bacteria is an anaerobic bacteria, meaning that it may only survive where oxygen is not present. So unless you have a dsb or a special piece of equipment, the bacteria isn't going to thrive in the aquarium. A dsb (or deep sand bed) is a place for anaerobic bacteria to thrive and reduce nitrates. Most people who don't have a deep sand bed don't have nitrate issues because a skimmer, macro algaes, and water changes keep them down to nearly nothing. After the initial cycle, your trates will be really high, so a large water change may be necessary. I highly recommend looking into cheatomorpha (commonly known as cheato), a lot of aquarists (including me) have had a lot of success with keeping their trates down with it. By the way, nitrates don't have to be 0 unless you are going reef. Oh, and if you do want to go reef, get a better salt. IO is okay for fish only or fowlr, but will not supply the ammounts of calcium and magnesium needed for a well balanced reef aquarium. Having fun yet?

 

[keebler]

Originally Posted by Robdog696
http:///forum/post/2716703
Topic of a lot of disagreement. Personally, I agree with you. Leave it alone and let it cycle. The point of the cycle is to grow bacteria and let IT remove the nitrates. In my personal opinion if you ever have to do a water change because of nitrates then you're either overstocked, you don't have enough liverock, you're overfeeding, or something died in your tank. The reason we should be doing water changes is to replace alk, calcium, O2, etc in the water. Not to lower nitrates. Sometimes in smaller tanks or if you're purposely keeping more fish than normal in your tank then water changes will be required. But I'm saying if you're aiming for an appropriately sized, stocked, and "self-sustaining" aquariam then nitrates should not be a problem.
Unfortunately denitrifying bacteria is an anaerobic bacteria, meaning that it may only survive where oxygen is not present. So unless you have a dsb or a special piece of equipment, the bacteria isn't going to thrive in the aquarium. Most people don't have nitrate issues because a skimmer, macro algaes, and water changes keep them down to nearly nothing. After the initial cycle, your trates will be really high, so a large water change may be necessary. I highly recommend looking into cheatomorpha, a lot of aquarist (including me) have had a lot of success with keeping their trates down with it. Having fun yet?

 

[rootx69]

With 12 pounds of cured live rock in a 12g tank you may not even see a cycle or you may just see a very small one. I know when I started my 55g in Dec with 50 lb of cured live rock I waited a month and never saw a cycle because there was all ready an established bacteria colony in the rock.

 

[keebler]

Originally Posted by Rootx69
http:///forum/post/2716747
With 12 pounds of cured live rock in a 12g tank you may not even see a cycle or you may just see a very small one. I know when I started my 55g in Dec with 50 lb of cured live rock I waited a month and never saw a cycle because there was all ready an established bacteria colony in the rock.
Yes, if the bacteria is already present on the cured live rock, then there would be very little die-off and the cycle would be unseen. That is why it is recommended to people who have never cycled a tank to add an ammonia source besides the die-off, that way they can see the ammonia go up and the tank cycle and learn from that. There are aquarists who just add a load of cured live rock and get an "instant" cycle.

 

[sueandherzoo]

That info was amazing - I now completely understand what the "cycle" is all about, how and why it happens, and why it's so important. I especially liked the line about needing the ammonia to help me determine whether or not my good bacteria is doing it's job. I really couldn't understand why I had to FORCE an ammonia spike but that explains it.
And am I having fun yet? Actually yes. Very much. I always need something to keep my mind challenged and occupied and I love being thirsty for knowledge, so this hobby should keep me learning for a very long time.
Thanks for being here.
Sue

 

[robdog696]

Originally Posted by Keebler http:///forum/post/2716737
Let's see the other side: Unfortunately denitrifying bacteria is an anaerobic bacteria, meaning that it may only survive where oxygen is not present. So unless you have a dsb or a special piece of equipment, the bacteria isn't going to thrive in the aquarium. A dsb (or deep sand bed) is a place for anaerobic bacteria to thrive and reduce nitrates. Most people who don't have a deep sand bed don't have nitrate issues because a skimmer, macro algaes, and water changes keep them down to nearly nothing. After the initial cycle, your trates will be really high, so a large water change may be necessary. I highly recommend looking into cheatomorpha (commonly known as cheato), a lot of aquarists (including me) have had a lot of success with keeping their trates down with it. By the way, nitrates don't have to be 0 unless you are going reef. Oh, and if you do want to go reef, get a better salt. IO is okay for fish only or fowlr, but will not supply the ammounts of calcium and magnesium needed for a well balanced reef aquarium. Having fun yet?
Your information is half right. You are absolutely correct about the deep sand bed. However, your assertion that without a dsb denitrifying bacteria has no place to grow is false. The same types of bacteria do not grow on both the outside and inside of liverock. You are absolutely right in stating that anaerobic bacteria grows in an anoxic environment. Likewise, aerobic bacteria grows in an oxic environment. The entire purpose of liverock is to provide both surface area (an oxic environment) and deep porous caverns (an anoxic environment) for both types of bacteria to grow on. Aerobic bacteria grows on the exterior surface of your liverock, tank walls, sand bed, etc. But deep inside your liverock is where the anaerobic bacteria is completing the nitrogen cycle. This is why we often see bubbles coming off of or suspended underneath large pieces of liverock. If liverock did not host anaerobic bacteria then we would all just use limestone, which is significantly cheaper. And we would all have DSBs, refugiums, or do daily water changes. Therefore, IF you have the right amount of liverock not for your aquarium size but for the amount of livestock that you have then water changes for the sake of removing nitrates are unnecessary. And I completely disagree on the claim that Instant Ocean salt is inadequate for a reef. That's a pretty bold statement. If you don't believe me, read through this recent thread.https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/329914/elements-chart-for-salt-mixes

 

[gmann1139]

Originally Posted by Robdog696 http:///forum/post/2716886
And I completely disagree on the claim that Instant Ocean salt is inadequate for a reef. That's a pretty bold statement. If you don't believe me, read through this recent thread.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/329914/elements-chart-for-salt-mixes
I did, and put my comments there. If you're using additives, you can use anything for a reef. But if you don't want to do that, IO themselves make a product, Reef Crystals, that's supposed to have more of what reef's need.

 

[keebler]

Originally Posted by Robdog696 http:///forum/post/2716886
Your information is half right. You are absolutely correct about the deep sand bed. However, your assertion that without a dsb denitrifying bacteria has no place to grow is false. The same types of bacteria do not grow on both the outside and inside of liverock. You are absolutely right in stating that anaerobic bacteria grows in an anoxic environment. Likewise, aerobic bacteria grows in an oxic environment. The entire purpose of liverock is to provide both surface area (an oxic environment) and deep porous caverns (an anoxic environment) for both types of bacteria to grow on. Aerobic bacteria grows on the exterior surface of your liverock, tank walls, sand bed, etc. But deep inside your liverock is where the anaerobic bacteria is completing the nitrogen cycle. This is why we often see bubbles coming off of or suspended underneath large pieces of liverock. If liverock did not host anaerobic bacteria then we would all just use limestone, which is significantly cheaper. And we would all have DSBs, refugiums, or do daily water changes. Therefore, IF you have the right amount of liverock not for your aquarium size but for the amount of livestock that you have then water changes for the sake of removing nitrates are unnecessary. And I completely disagree on the claim that Instant Ocean salt is inadequate for a reef. That's a pretty bold statement. If you don't believe me, read through this recent thread. https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/329914/elements-chart-for-salt-mixes
Never thought of it that way, makes sense, thanks for the additional info. I still think that IO is inadequate for a reef. Not saying that it sucks or anything, but I think that it can't supply an adequate amount of calcium. When I have used it in the past for fowlr tanks, the calcium simply wasn't there. Heck, maybe a bad batch threw me off. Anyway, most will agree that there are other salts that are better for reef. Like gmann said, every batch differs and they only tested one batch.

 

[hlcroghan]

Just to give you more info on that 50% water change.....the bacteria doesn't really live in the water, it lives on the sand and rocks. You change the water to introduce clean water, just as rain does for the ocean. The new water also has more oxygen in it, although that happens on the surface of the water. So in short, you are not starting the cycle and then messing it up, your cycle is complete and you are giving the tank fresh clean water.

 

[keebler]

Originally Posted by hlcroghan
http:///forum/post/2717699
Just to give you more info on that 50% water change.....the bacteria doesn't really live in the water, it lives on the sand and rocks. You change the water to introduce clean water, just as rain does for the ocean. The new water also has more oxygen in it, although that happens on the surface of the water. So in short, you are not starting the cycle and then messing it up, your cycle is complete and you are giving the tank fresh clean water.
Good addition.

 

[sueandherzoo]

Great additional info about the water change. I think intellectually I KNEW that the bacteria is in and on the rocks and sand rather than the water but I wasn't quite grasping that - I saw the water change as taking the "cured" water and dumping it which seemed like such a waste. Thanks for simplifying it for me. Some of this science really is very basic once you can "see" it in your head.
Sue

 

[keebler]

Originally Posted by SueAndHerZoo
http:///forum/post/2718183
Great additional info about the water change. I think intellectually I KNEW that the bacteria is in and on the rocks and sand rather than the water but I wasn't quite grasping that - I saw the water change as taking the "cured" water and dumping it which seemed like such a waste. Thanks for simplifying it for me. Some of this science really is very basic once you can "see" it in your head.
Sue
It is pretty hard to understand if you ask me, but it is really simple stuff.