Berlin system

pjlovesbaskets

pjlovesbaskets

Member
I checked out a new place for local LR, corals, and supplies and learned about the Berlin system. This guy made sense but suggested to me to restart my whole system. I have a 125g that has been up and running since November. I am headed toward a reef aquarium but really only have 2 corals and a full stock of fish and inverts. The thought of starting all over isn't appealing but I do want to do it right. Right now I have a Fluval filter that seems to be causing nitrates. Right now they are in the 20's. They've been as high as 80 when I wasn't cleaning out the sponges. This system is supposed to be really great and the price was really reasonable.
1. What are your experiences?
2. Is the Berlin system for reef only systems?
3. What are the pros and cons?
Another topic that came up is lighting. How important are the moon lights? He wants to build my lighting in a canopy for a pretty good price. The fish and corals were very healthy in his system were very healthy.
 
wangotango

wangotango

Active Member
The Berlin method relies on biological filtration and heavy skimming. You want to have at least 1 to 1 1/2 ibs of live rock per gallon to provide enough surface area for bacteria to grow, and a live sand bed. A deep sand be will aid in denitrification. You also want to have a pretty high qualilty skimmer, one that is rated for more than the tank's capacity. IMO the best way to go is to buy or build a sump under the tank where you can keep a refugium, and keep all your heaters and your skimmer.
They can be used in fish-only tanks as well, but with all the live rock it'd be considered a FOWLR.
Pros: It's probably the most popular method out there and almost impossible to

[hr]
up. Can't really think of any cons except for that live rock is expensive.
Hope that helps.
-Justin
 
pjlovesbaskets

pjlovesbaskets

Member
Thanks... here's my deal. I have a 125g that is established for about 7 months. I have 55g that is freshwater now but would like to go salt.
My choices are
1. Redo the 125g like stated in the post and make that the reef
2. Convert the 55g to reef using the Berlin system and have two tanks. Keep the 125 as fish only. 20 nitrates aren't too bad for fish only.
I have a chocolate star and a black urchin that aren't coral safe. I have to police them around my two corals. So a good place for them is important. I have 3 tangs to consider in this. 2 yellow and a hippo tang which would have to stay in the 125g due to swim space. They are there now and getting along fine. I want a blue powder tang but I think my tang space is done.
I am leaning to converting the 55g to reef because I would tear it down for the conversion anyway. I wouldn't have to mess with the 125g that is beginning to become established. My son really wants the 125g as the reef.
What do you think?
 
pjlovesbaskets

pjlovesbaskets

Member
I was reading on a site that suggested putting crumbled or small pieces of LR in my canister filter to bring down nitrates. Sounds like a great idea! Can you think of any negatives to this?
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by Pjlovesbaskets
http:///forum/post/2620768
I was reading on a site that suggested putting crumbled or small pieces of LR in my canister filter to bring down nitrates. Sounds like a great idea! Can you think of any negatives to this?
You'll need a lot of LR; and the canisters flow will probably be to high for the nitrate-to-nitrogen bacteria. This type of bacteria lives deep in LR and has different oxygen requirements than the easier to cultivate type that converts amm to nitrite to nitrate. I played around with something similar (for a no LR 55) and finally hit something that works. I use a very large HOB filter box, LR rubble, and the impeller from a smaller model of the same brand filter. It moves water at about 1/4 the rate of the old impeller and works very well. I think I just got lucky. But; (like WangoTango said) if you have enough mature LR; that's still the best way to keep nitrates down. (along with water changes)
As to the PB tang; not just not enough space, but these guys are quite aggressive and almost certainly would cause problems with 3 tangs already there. IMO, a 125 would be about the minimum for a PB tang, if it was the ONLY tang in the tank.
 
horsin1963

horsin1963

Member
Originally Posted by Pjlovesbaskets
http:///forum/post/2620768
I was reading on a site that suggested putting crumbled or small pieces of LR in my canister filter to bring down nitrates. Sounds like a great idea! Can you think of any negatives to this?
Lighting? LR will need it to keep the live portion of still growing? but someone please correct me if I'm wrong
 
pjlovesbaskets

pjlovesbaskets

Member
Alright, here goes a question...and the hardest part is asking the question because I don't know enough to know what to ask. Does that make sense?

But here it goes...
The way I understand this is if I do the Berlin method, I drill my tank and run PVC to another tank under my tank. This contains my skimmer, heater and LR. When I clean my tank I am really cleaning the tank underneath most of the time and sand sifting monthly.
Now some of you guys go all out and have R/O systems in your basement with big garbage cans of R/O water dripping into the containers.
Here is where I get lost. Do you plumb it somehow to the tank so that you turn a knob and get the R/O to your tank on the upper floor? Do you do the reverse somehow for water changes?

I don't know how I would really get that water from my basement to the second floor in my case and get it in the tank. That would be a lot of work. Now I am lugging it from the store. I might add that I bought an R/O system and my water pressure was too low to get it to produce a gallon a day. It was to put out 75g a day. I sent it back.
Another question...am I crazy...stupid or just asking for a huge water damage problem by having these tanks on my second floor. The floor supports it. Sorry if these are very newbie questions. I am also a woman whose husband isn't handy in this area. I do most of the handyman work or hirer it out. I would have to have some outside help and do a lot of convincing of my husband if this is a major task.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by Pjlovesbaskets
http:///forum/post/2620922
Alright, here goes a question...and the hardest part is asking the question because I don't know enough to know what to ask. Does that make sense?

But here it goes...
The way I understand this is if I do the Berlin method, I drill my tank and run PVC to another tank under my tank. This contains my skimmer, heater and LR. When I clean my tank I am really cleaning the tank underneath most of the time and sand sifting monthly.
Now some of you guys go all out and have R/O systems in your basement with big garbage cans of R/O water dripping into the containers.
Here is where I get lost. Do you plumb it somehow to the tank so that you turn a knob and get the R/O to your tank on the upper floor? Do you do the reverse somehow for water changes?

I don't know how I would really get that water from my basement to the second floor in my case and get it in the tank. That would be a lot of work. Now I am lugging it from the store. I might add that I bought an R/O system and my water pressure was too low to get it to produce a gallon a day. It was to put out 75g a day. I sent it back.
Another question...am I crazy...stupid or just asking for a huge water damage problem by having these tanks on my second floor. The floor supports it. Sorry if these are very newbie questions. I am also a woman whose husband isn't handy in this area. I do most of the handyman work or hirer it out. I would have to have some outside help and do a lot of convincing of my husband if this is a major task.
The only question that you ever need to be sorry about is the one you should have asked; but didn't.
I'm often in the minority on this question. But, IMO, not everyone needs RO water, it depends on your local tap water. I've successfully used tap water since I've been in the hobby..in 3 different areas. You can test your tap water for nitrates, phosphate(easily removed) silicates (ditto), etc; and get a report from your local water utility that will tell you what's in it. Consider the pros & cons...then make an informed decision. I've almost gone to RO/Di on a few occasions; but really only because it was so popular with some real experts...and I just like tinkering with new stuff. But, I never gave in, have never used it in 30+ years of SW fishkeeping, and have never had a problem that I could blame on my tap water. I don't disagree with anyone who uses Ro/DI: I just don't think everybody needs it.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by Pjlovesbaskets
http:///forum/post/2621099
I have well water so R/O is a must. Thanks for the reply!
I'm not convinced that well water automatic means you NEED it. IMO, RO/DI is a great way to go, but not always an affordable or practical answer to a problem that may not even exist.
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Horsin1963
http:///forum/post/2620883
Lighting? LR will need it to keep the live portion of still growing? but someone please correct me if I'm wrong
Again that word live rock
the poster referenced nitrate removal with is achieved by anaerobic bacteria inside the “live rock” this bacterium does not rely on photosintisys to survive
 
pjlovesbaskets

pjlovesbaskets

Member
I know my well water has a red rust that is a fast growing bacteria that turns my water into a sludge. For that reason we have to dump chlorine in the well twice a year and filter it out until the chlorine is gone. The red rust has damaged pumps for the well in 3 of my neighbors wells. These are all houses built in the last 5-7 years so the wells are new. For that reason alone, I don't trust the quality. I must admit, I haven't tried it on my SW. I do use it in my FW tank though with a biowheel filter without trouble. But...if I am wrong, how to do I go about trying it/testing it out without jeopardizing my tank and equipment. Anyone know? That would be a HUGE problem solved if Florida Joe is correct in suggesting my well water may be fine.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by Pjlovesbaskets
http:///forum/post/2621766
I know my well water has a red rust that is a fast growing bacteria that turns my water into a sludge. For that reason we have to dump chlorine in the well twice a year and filter it out until the chlorine is gone. The red rust has damaged pumps for the well in 3 of my neighbors wells. These are all houses built in the last 5-7 years so the wells are new. For that reason alone, I don't trust the quality. I must admit, I haven't tried it on my SW. I do use it in my FW tank though with a biowheel filter without trouble. But...if I am wrong, how to do I go about trying it/testing it out without jeopardizing my tank and equipment. Anyone know? That would be a HUGE problem solved if Florida Joe is correct in suggesting my well water may be fine.
I think I'll give in on this one. If you have to mess with your water that much; I think RO/DI would be a wise, if not a must, investment. Although; long ago, in a place far away, I began this hobby with well water. My area had a lot of iron, but went through a salt-based system and worked just fine. But it sure sounds like you have more of a problem.
 
pjlovesbaskets

pjlovesbaskets

Member
Okay, I tested my water from the tap w/o salt added. I am thinking that was not the correct thing to do because I used a marine lab tester. I don't think it read well because of the lack of salt. This is what I got...
ca. added 15 extra drops and didn't get a reading
nitrites 0
nitrates 2.5
alk 3.6
ammonia .25
Ph-very high and not detectable on the guide.
I tested using a mardel freshwater strip and this is what I got.
nitrate 0
nitrite 0
hardness 50ppm
alk. 300
ph 8.4
I am out of freshwater ammonia strips but from testing the freshwater out of the tap for my FW tank, I know it is 0.
I just ran my well for about 6-8 yesterday to fill our pool and the water filter on the softener needs changed.
What do you think? There would definately be a ph shock because the tank is currently 7.4. I am not sure what alk does or if hardness plays a factor.
 
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