best ways to prevent flooding??

jfun2

New Member
Well first off I owe a big thank you to all on this board, your knowledgable comments on all the saltwater oriented topics on this board have been a great help in my establishment of a saltwater tank. I have a 75gal,beginning its cycle now and as far as equipment I have a wet/dry,protein skimmer and a 15watt UV sterilizer.It has 60lbs of LS and will be adding about 30Lbs of LR and I am leaning toward starting an aggresive setup. My question is, I have an oversized dual overflow box for more flow rate using 2 u-tubes siphoning the water out and i have a rio 3100 as my return pump, a rio 400 for the UV sterilizer input, and a rio 600 for the protein skimmer..I have read all these flooding stories and wanted to know what steps to take that would be effective in preventing this if the power goes out. I have been looking into an APC power source that offers back up battery power and hooking up my return pump by itself to that just in case. Is that the best way? Any help,advice, or personal expeirience would be greatly appreciated.Thanks in advance guys!
 

broomer5

Active Member
The best way I've found to prevent a sump/overflow flood is to not allow the conditions to exist that will let it flood.
Two things to focus on ( actually 3 )
1) Insure that when the pump power is turn off - that your returnlines break siphon BEFORE allowing more water to drain back down into the sump. Having a larger sump helps, but if done right, you can drill holes in the spraybar or intank return jet fitting, just under the normal operating level of your display tank.
Pump off - water begins to drain back down - water level reaches these holes - air vent - siphon breaks.
2) Make sure you have enough flow from the return pump into the tank to prevent air bubbles from forming in the U tube(s).
If you don't have enough flow, air will become entrapped in the upper curve of the U tube. This air will form a large bubble, continuing to grow larger, and eventually if left unattended - it will cause a loss of prime in your U tube, lose it's capacity to work.
If either of these two things happen - and you are not there to react like NOW - you'll either flood over your sides of your sump, or flood over the sides of your display tank.
Having redundant holes drilled just under the main holes, gives you a little more protection should the top main holes become restricted.
That is the 3rd point.
You MUST maintain these components of your system, insure that the holes do not get plugged up, the U tube does not get crapped up inside, and that the pump is selected right.
Both at high flows that your overflow can handle, and at low flows that will prevent bubbles from forming in there.
I've ran these systems for years. I have not once had to grab a towel or had a flood.
Battery backup's are good to have - but in no way should one rely on these for flood control.
 

cap'n pete

Member
Broomer has great points as always. Also know what happens on different stages of your system when things go wrong, ie power failure. Your overflow and returns should only allow enough water back down into the sump to fill it, not overflow when the power goes out. The return pump can be moved up in the sump to allow it to only pump enough water to fill tank if siphon is lost. ( this may cause your main tank water level to be slightly below normal but is worth the insurance). Basically figure out where everything needs to be to prevent flooding in the worst case scenario.
How I tested mine..
1. Shut off power and observe.
-(water level in tank goes to level of bottom of slits in overflow and bottom of return tube, overflow water reaches equilibrium and does not lose siphon, sump water level raises but does not flood)
2. Turn back power and observe everything return to normal.
3. Force loss of siphon
-(water level in main tank raises to top of tank and stops)
What to do if step 1 fails.
lower sump water level or drill air relief holes in return as Broomer suggested or raise slit level on overflow. Basically cut down on amount of water that can return to sump during power loss
What to do if step 3 fails.
Raise return pump higher in sump until it can't pump too much water into tank if siphon fails
HTH, I tried to explain as best I could.
 

saltyfish

Member
Boomer can you exsplane that a little more to me ? I'm not sure if i get what you are talking about when you say break siphen and alll that. I'm working on modifying my tank right now and is comming along i think you are right ity is a great set up for a reef tank when i get there.
Aaron
 

broomer5

Active Member
Aaron,
Have you ever placed a bucket of water say on a counter or bench, and siphoned the water out of it with a hose or tubing ?
You know, same way some of us siphon out the water from our tanks when we do a water change.
Stick the hose into the tank, suck on it to pull the air out, the water starts to fill the hose, then place the end you were sucking the air out into bucket, and the water starts flowing from the tank to the bucket. That is known as a siphon.
Water moving from a higher place to a lower place, through a hose or tube.
It's possible because the atmospheric pressure is pusing down on the surface of the tank water. In a retangular tank, the water is contained on five sides by the glass ( bottom and four sides ). Gravity keeps the water in the tank, but this atmospheric pressure is pushing down on this water as well. Atmospheric pressure is like 14.7 pounds per square inch, at sea level.
Anyway, when you place a siphon hose in the tank and evacuate the air in the hose, you'd think that you are sucking the water up into the hose. Actually you are removing the air in the hose, creating a low pressure area within the hose, less pressure than the atmospheric pressure. The atmospheric pressure acting upon the tankwater is in effect, "pushing" the water into the hose, up and over the side of the tank, and it flows down to the bucket.
Placing the hose deeper in the tank will allow a faster flowrate of water to siphon to the bucket - because now you've added some additional pressure ( tank water head pressure ). Raise the end of the hose in the tank, the water will still continue to siphon, but at a little less flowrate.
Pull the end of the hose out of the tank, and you let air back into the hose, the pressure in the hose is equal to the atmospheric pressure again, and you BREAK THE SIPHON.
No difference of pressure = no flow.
You must always have a difference of pressure for most anything to flow from one place to another. It's called differential pressure - how clever ;)
Same type of thing occurs when you are pumping water up to the tank with a return pump. You've got the sump with water in it ( like the bucket ).
You've got the hose.
You've got the return spraybar or jet IN THE TANK creating a continuously filled hose, connecting the sump and tank together, as long as the pump is running.
As long as the return hose is in the tankwater ( say the open end of the hose is sticking down into the tank 1 inch ) and this hose leads down to a lower level ( the return pump/sump ) then if the POWER GOES OUT, or you turn off the pump - you have the conditions for a siphon to start on it's own.
No need to suck the air out of the hose - it's already out of there.
So once again the atmospheric pressure does it's thing, it starts pushing the water through the spraybar in the opposite direction it was flowing from the pump, and the water in the tank starts to drain back down to the sump.
How much of it drains back down idepends on how far the return line is positioned in the tank. In our example here, we had it down in the tank that 1 inch. The water in the tank will keep draining back to the sump ( siphoning ) until the water level in the tank drops the 1 inch. Once it does .... the open end of the return hose in the tank is exposed to the air, it vents, and allows any remaining water that was in hose to fall ( gravity kicks in here ) down to the sump.
On the other hand, if you had the return spray fitting located deep in the tank, let's say all the way to the bottom of the tank, and you turned off the power to the pump ..... the water in the tank would drain ALL THE WAY DOWN to the where this spray fitting was located, again until the open end of the hose is exposed to air . You could easily empty most of the tank of water to the sump.
Of course your sump is normally not the same size of the tank, so it would have overfilled way before the tank water level even got close to the bottom, and all that water would end up on your floor. I don't need to explain what that means, let's just say that is a really bad thing to happen.
So what people do to prevent this from happening, is to keep the return spraybar up near the surface of the tankwater. Or if they want to position it a little deeper in the tank, they drill a small hole in the returnline, just underneath the normal water level in the tank. Under normal conditions, everything is cool. Water is pumping up to the tank, most of it is shooting out the spraybar, a little bit is shooting out this drilled hole ( but you don't see either because both are underwater ).
When pump loses power, the natural siphon begins as it is expected to, water starts draining back to the sump, until the water level in the tank reaches this little drilled hole.
Once this happend, air rushes in the hose, it vents, atmospheric pressure no longer is pushing the water through the hose anymore, the remaining water in the hose falls back to the sump and nothing overflows.
That's what can and does happen all the time when you use a sump, return pump, return line, and overflow set up in our hobby.
The siphon effect is possible due to a combination of atmospheric pressure, differential pressure and gravity.
Knowing HOW it works in not all that importatant - but knowing that it DOES happen and what to do to handle it is the key to keeping the system running smoothly, and keeping all the water where it's supposed to be.
In your tank, in your sump, in your hoses and drain lines ............ and not on the floor.
 

jfun2

New Member
Thanks for the quick responses guys! As usual you shed some much needed light on the question. I am going to implement your suggestions and run a test of the system and see what happens, I had completely overlooked adjusting the return pump height in the sump to prevent too much water going back to the tank. Again thanks alot.
 

rhomer

Member
one point that hasn't been touched on is the overflow box. You will need to be sure that when power is lost that your J tube doesn't lose it's prime. This is easy to maintain by making sure that both sides of the overflow box keep the water above the bottom of both sides of the J tube. This has been a point of debate in the past, because some overflows don't work this way. They use a power head to re-prime the J tube when the power goes out. In fact I believe fishhub can explain this type of box better then I can.
Rob
 

rhomer

Member
Sorry for the double post, but you might consider adding a ball valve just above the return line for added security.
 
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