Beth Help!

[tyrfing]

I moved my Lion (he's about 3 inches long) and my 2 percula clowns (1.5 inches long) into a 15 gallon hospital tank (out of my 75 gallon reef). I lost my big lion to some white spots, scales that looked like they were peeling back etc. Clowns were showing black and white dots on heads. My plan was to lower the salinity to 1.09 to fight ich. Today, my salinity is down to 1.20 (down from 1.28, and I noticed the fins on the Lion were pretty ragged. Initially I thought it was due to nipping from the damels (mean little fish aren't they?), but now I'm not so sure.
Everyone is eating fine (clowns are actually pretty aggressive) and pretty active (the lion isn't happy he's in a smaller tank).
Any diagnosis? How long should I let my main tank sit without any fish to let the ich or whatever die off? How long should I treat the fish?
Any help would be appreciated.

 

[beth]

Is the lionfish dead or what? I couldn't follow that.
The problem here is getting a diagnosis, and you've been posting for a few days now. We can rule out velvet which you mentioned originally, because if it was velvet all the fish would be dead by now.
The white spots...are they white dots like salt sprinkled on the fish? Do clowns have this only on the head area or can you see this on other parts of the body? If the lionfish is alive [or am I confusing one lionfish with another one you had??] what do you see? The same dots?
The black dots?? Do you see both white and black dots that look like salt sprinkled on the fish?? Need more specific details here.... How are fish behaving? Are they scratching on rocks? Breathing rapidly? Gilling rapidly? Be very observant and then report back.
I am going to guess that you have 2 disease process going on. Ick and black spot disease. But you need to give some very specific details here.
Now, as to hyposalinity. Please be sure that you read the hydrometer CORRECTLY. Over a 48 period, you need to lower the Specific Gravity to 1.009. Do this in several small increments and let your fishes' reaction to this guide in this process. Fish will commonly be active and eat more while undergoing hypo, so don't worry about this. Feed your fish garlic soaked food everyday during this treatment process. Hyposalinity will only treat ick...the white spot disease. It will not treat black spot disease. Before getting into that, I want the specifics I requested.
In the absence of fish in your tank, ick or any other parasite will die off. Your main tank does not have any fish in it now, right?

 

[tyrfing]

The large antennatae Lion is dead. The smaller (3.5 inch) Russell's Lion is alive though his breathing seemed a bit labored last night. Other than the labored breathing, he doesn't show any signs of anything. I'm thinking the breathing may just be due to stress since he's in a smaller tank (75 originally with 75 of LR down to a 15 hospital tank with a single large rock). Oh yes, his fins are pretty ragged, but I'm wondering if that's not nipping from the damsels (they got really aggressive in the last week).
It's strange that the Lion doesn't show any physical symptoms because he was the last fish added.
Nothing in my large show tank right now.
As for the clowns..
It looks like salt sprinkled on their heads, but I really couldn't see any white spots going past their dorsal fins. Black dots are raised a bit (I can see them in profile). There seems to be some gray patches towards the base of ones tail, that I haven't seen before, not on the fins, but on his body. Clowns are eating very aggressively, still come to the side of tank when I come over etc. They are acting normally in every sense of the word other than the spots. There doesn't seem to be any scratching or rubbing going on that I have observed.
As for salinity...
I stated wrongly because I was writing from memory and forgot a zero. Current salinity is 1.020. Thanks for the guideline for lowering salinity, I was getting worried because someone in one posting had said you need to lower salinity over a three week period. I thought that was a bit long...
As for garlic soaked food...
How do I treat the food? Is this something to get at my LFS or can I purchase supermarket grade crushed garlic in a jar and treat?
I think that's everything you requested. Since I'm getting rid of the damsels, I have a 5 gallon tank ready for treating. Would I be better off moving my clowns to that and give my Russell's Lion a bit more room? He's kind of the pride of the tank and my main concern.
Thanks alot for your guidance and help!

 

[beth]

You can lower the specific gravity to 1.009 over a 48 hr period. If it took 3 wks to lower SG, your fish would die of ick waiting for the treatment to kick in.
Yes, go to the store and get garlic extract, not the stuff that is in the jar. You can find the extract in the spices section of the food store, around where the vanilla, salt, pepper, etc. is. The extract is liquid form, so all you need to do is soak your fish food in this [in the fridg] for about an hr before serving up.
Clowns...I am thinking that they may have Brooklynella. Do you know if these fish were wild caught or tank raised??
Brooklynella is commonly called clownfish disease becaue it is seen mosthly on [wild-caught] clowns. It is a parasite. The most obvious symptom of this disease is a profuse production of mucous from the skin---ie: the greyish area you are seeing. However, with this disease, fish may show signs of difficulty breathing and poor appetite---which, apparently is not the case with your clowns. Fish can be treated with malachite green andor formalin. Copper is not an effective treatment for brooklynella.
Don't do that treatment yet, though....as I still am not sure about it, and formalin is a harsh treatment unless you can be sure. Lets see if TerryB will give us some input here.
In the meantime, continue with hyposalinity. The black dots....black spot disease?....hard to believe that your clownfish have 3 distinct diseases. Will ask for advise from Terry.
Hold tight!

 

[tyrfing]

Moved the clowns to a small tank (5 gallons) and they seem okay. Have no idea if they were tank raised or wild caught.
The Lion is looking pretty haggard. Half of his tail is gone from the top down, looks like there are no membranes between the veins in his tail. Not sure if he's got something or the clowns were nipping him. He's just staring in to the corner of the tank. He's by himself right now. Not sure if he's stressed or what but he's not eating, not like him at all; he's usually pretty greedy.

 

[beth]

Besides the ragged fins have seen any other problems with this...I mean visible problems, like the ick or black spot?
Hopefully the absense of clowns will improve the situation. How are the water conditions in the hospital tank? This must be maintained at optimum! Do you have good gas exchange at the surface?

 

[tyrfing]

That's what's so weird, other than the ragged fins and loss of appetite, the Lion shows no marks, spots, flecks, dots, loss of scales, film or anything. Water conditions are good (NH4 & Nit 0) Salinity is down to 1.014 right now, I'll take it down to 1.009 tomorrow if needed, but he doesn't appear to have ich. I'm baffled and worried. As far as gas exchange, it's a little weak, there's not much clearance between the water surface and aquarium top. The filter was bubbling if I left the water level low and I kind of figured that the noise might be adding to his stress since he was use to a large tank where the noise would be muffled.
Thanks for all of your help and concern, I do appreciate it.

 

[tyrfing]

Terry:
Thanks for the response. I went ahead and started Maracyn last night as the Lion just looked so bad I figured that it would either hasten his demise or start him on the road to wellness.
As far as quarantining, I'm sure you can recognize from my previous posts that quarantining had not been my procedure. Live and learn (and develop new habits from the school of hard knocks). I will attempt the formalin dips today. Thanks. How long should I keep my fish out of my show tank and should I be treating it with anything?

 

[beth]

If your main tank has no fish, you should be able to return them their home 4 wks after all signs of fish disease is gone.
If you were dealing with velvet, the time for main tank wo fish would be 2 mos.

 

[tyrfing]

I'm sorry, I misspoke, it is Maracyn II I'm treating with. I went to the

[hr]
to get some formaldehyde and they looked at me like I had an extra appendage growing out of the middle of my head. Where would I pick some up? They gave me the impression I would need a prescription.