Beth, pls help, Hippo tang acting strange.

[tang_man_montreal]

Hi Beth..
For the past 2 evenings, my Hippo Blue tang has been acting strange.
Only in the evening that I have noticed, he is swimming eratically. Doing "bombing runs" from the top or middle of the aquarium, swimming quickly from one end to the other, Hitting the front glass with his face, and even sliding his entire body along the front glass. Noticably, not the side glass at all. He does this for about 5-10min at a time.
It doesn't look as if he's scratching, as he's only rubbing against the glass every now and then. Furthermore, he's not rubbing himself against the rocks or sand either. And his colors are bright as ever. He's currently about 2.5".
I don't "think" he's sick... and I havn't noticed any spots, blotch's, etc.. on him either.
He's still himself when it comes to feeding as well... a PIG.
tank params: (tested tonight)
pH: 8.0
SG: 1.023
temp: 83pm, 81am
ammo: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: (trace amounts) ~5
Cal: 360
Tank mates include a yellow tang (3.5"), and a longnose hawk (2.5"), and other inverts, and corals. (See signature)
This is a 90 Gal. with a 20gal sump/fuge.
The only change recently; I'm slowly taking the ceramic outta my wet/dry in the sump.. To completely remove the wet/dry from there entirely. There have been no changes in water quality.
I'm also running a Fluval 403. One chamber has the sponges, and one chamber has ceramic. This was cleaned 2 weeks ago.
The reason I'm removing the Wet/dry... No need in a reef aquarium... and I need the room for the caulerpa that I've been putting in there since Tuesday to help with Nutrient export. (small hair algae problem)...
What do you think? Please help...

 

[beth]

Hey, Tang, how long have you had this particular fish? Any new additions to your tank resently, and, if so, did you QT? I know you were inquiring about setting up a QT a while back. Frankly, this does sound like the prelude to a parasite problem.
Check on fish's respiration. Notice that the tang is breathing or gilling rapidly? Red or swollen gills? Cloudy eyes? Red tail area?

 

[tang_man_montreal]

Hi Beth,
I acquired this tank stocked with these fish 7 weeks ago.
The previous owner had this hippo tang for about 6-8 months. I've had him almost 2 months now.
Moved the tank and everything (water included) to my place.
Water quality was always good. Never had a problem. I've monitored water quality on a semi-daily basis.
Only new additions recently were 5 margarita snails 2 weeks ago, and some caulerpa in my sump/fuge 3 days ago. Havn't added any fish yet cause my QT hasn't finished cycling yet.
I checked respiration, he's breathing normally.
gills look fine as well.
eyes are not cloudy at all.
Tail area is not red.
This morning, he was fine. A pig as usual at feeding time.
When he's at the front glass, you'd swear he's attacking his reflection. Could it be he's growing and starting to assert is dominance over the tank?
He doesn't scratch on rocks or sand at all.. just rubs his body on the front glass.. and this only for a short period of time in the evening.
BTW: I've noticed most, if not all tangs have the spikes at the tail. Although my hippo doesn't... Normal for hippos?

 

[beth]

Your hippo doesn't have spikes?? Take a closer look. They are located at the triangle point of the yellow tail as you can see on this pic.

Notice too on that pic some poc markings around the tangs face? Likely the beginnings of HLLE. Hippos are prone to ich, bacterial infections and HLLE. If the fish is rubbing and you see no obvious parasite problem, it could be feeling the beginnings of HLLE. Notice if the rubbing is more in the face area? Any discoloration or bumps around the face? Make sure that you are feeding this tang a varied diet that includes a good deal of grazing throughout the day as well as seaweed selects/Nori. If you can get Zoecon or Zoe, soak food in this. Keep an eye out, and see if anything develops.

 

[tang_man_montreal]

Hi Beth,
Thanks for the quick replies..
Regarding the spikes... I've looked closely, and I can't say that I've seen any. I'll look again tonight in the Yellow area, like in that picture. My Yellow tang has some nice big white spikes, but havn't seen any on the hippo.
I have noticed though that his face is discolored from his forehead down to the top of his lips... It's basically just a lighter color than the rest of his body.
Although he has been this way since I got him. So if it is HLLE, he had it already, and thus I didn't notice a change for better or worse.
BUT, like I mentioned, It's not poc markings like in the picture. It's just a little bit of a fade compared to the rest of his body. He's a very active swimmer and eater though. (I now know why they're called hippo's)...
The rubbing along the glass is basically along the side of his body, although he does start with a slight bump of the head into the glass.
My feeding routing is as follows:
Mornings, I feed a 1/4 cube of Formula 2, which I cut up into bitesize pieces and hand feed to them. All fish eat outta my hand . Evening feeding is Nutrifin Marine Flake. Basically what they eat within 2 minutes.
I've been doing this feeding ritual since I got the tank 7 weeks ago. I have bought some Nori, but since I don't have a clip, I havn't fed them this yet.
I will try to post a picture.. Although, of all the fish, he's the hardest to photograph. He doesn't stand still long enough...

 

[tang_man_montreal]

Regarding the Vitamin supplements..
I can only get Kent's Zoe or Selcon up here in Canada.
Can't get Zoe or Zoecon.. , or rather, can't find it...

 

[beth]

There are online sources that sell both those vitamin supplements, so you should try to get it.
Also, that diet needs to improve somewhat. Try to get a wide variety of frozen foods, with some emphasis on vegetarian foods. Offering the tang some grazing opportunity is important. Does your LR or tank provide algae? Also, if you can try offering the fish tiny bits of salmon...since you can hand-feed, this should not be too hard. However, since salmon is an oily fish, you don't want to just dump a lot of it in your tank. If you have a supply of macro algae, then offer some up to your tangs.
If the head area is showing lightness, you could be seeing early symptoms of HLLE. Do you have a grounding probe in tank? If you have an easy supply of caulerpa, try offering some to the tangs. If you want to keep healthy tangs, you must offer grazing and vegetarian foods.

 

[tang_man_montreal]

There's a local guy here that has Selcon in stock apparently. I'll probably get it there. Is there need for both Selcon AND Kent's Zoe? Or should I just choose one?
I thought the Formula2 was an "all-in-one" package for veggie loving fish. That along with the flake, I thought I was addressing all their dietary concerns.. Hmm. guess not.
As for algae, I'm currently battling a small hair algae problem, which the tangs won't touch. They won't touch the caulerpa either. I tried. They just picked at it, and let it be. It's ok though, since I got the caulerpa for the sump to help with nutrient export... I have a nice little PC bulb lighting the sump so that it doesn't go sexual.
How bout using Formula1 as well? or frozen squid? etc? I'm still not comfortable providing them with fresh fish... I prefer the tried and tested foods...
I don't have a grounding probe in the tank. Although I have read that grounding probes don't do anything, and are a myth.
I will try the nori.. I have some at home, just havn't tried yet since I didn't have a clip.

 

[beth]

Where did you hear that grounding probes are a myth??? I'd like to read a source that says that.
Also, LOL...you're afraid to try fresh foods?? Tang, remember that the frozen stuff is something that we humans dreamed up. Fish are used to eating fresh seafood. That is their natural diet! I am recommending to try just a bit of salmon because of the Omega3 that it contains. Good for HLLE. My suggestion would be to add in as much variety as you can, and not just 1 or 2 sources of frozen/flake foods. Read the ingredient label of the frozen foods--most of it is "moisture".
Picking at the macro is exactly what you want tangs to do. This is grazing. If the tangs were picking at the caulerpa, it won't be long before they decide to chow down on it. Up to you.
HLLE is not a 1-answer problem. It is a multiple faceted disorder that can relate to fish immuno-deficiency. We don't know if your fish has mild HLLE, but none of the recommendations I've given you will be wasted if the fish doesn't have this disease. What I'm suggesting would be an overall enhancement to the care of your fish---sick or not.

 

[tang_man_montreal]

Hey Beth,
Here's the grounding probe myth link
let me know what you think of it...
LOL... I know it sounded strange that I was afraid to try fresh foods. And it does merit a good laugh at my expense. I was just afraid of the consequences of trying it.
You pointed out that Salmon contains Omage3... Ok, I will try it.
Now, is this raw or smoked? does it make a difference? I'd think so. just double checking.
Thanks for the great information regarding diet concerns. I will address this issue promptly and keep you up to date on his status.

 

[beth]

Tang, hopefully kidding you is not laughter at your expense.
All fresh foods offered fish need to be pure, unprocessed seafood. Nothing added or done to it. BTW: I am suggesting to just offer a few pieces at a time. As I said, salmon is oily and not usually recommended as a fish food for aquariums. But, in this case, it could help. Get yourself a salmon steak to enjoy, and just shave off some for your fish. You can also certainly freeze some for future fish consumption.
I'll read up on the ground probe link.

 

[tang_man_montreal]

Hi Beth,
Well, I noticed 2 things when I got home..
1) I looked closely at the hippo. And yes, it does look like HLLE. Although he's been like this for a while. Atleast 2 months, since he was this way when I got him. So.... Does HLLE spread to other fish? And is vitamin supplements and a varied diet the best cure? Is there a cure?
2) Upon close inspection of the tail area, I must admit that there are no "visible" spikes. Do they develop with age? Or are they there since they are born?
I will try the salmon steak idea, try to get my hands on some Selcon or Zoe and Zoecon, and get more of a varied diet for them... What do you think of my feeding schedule and quantity that I mentioned earlier in the thread? Is it enough or not?
Thanks for all your help,
I really appreciate all of it!

 

[beth]

The causes for HLLE are believed to be varied ranging from parasites, stray voltage, vitamin deficiency. etc. Optimum water quality is essential.
It is not contagious, however, if one tang gets HLLE, you might find that other tangs in your tank [and to a lesser extent, angels] may also get HLLE. This is not due to a contagion, rather that the same conditions that caused the HLLE in one fish also exists with all susceptible fish in the same tank.
Kent sells a Vitamin C formula that you may also want to try out. It is important to try and offer your fish algae. You don’t need to use a lettuce clip, just lodge pieces of Nori or SeaWeed Selects into your live rock. HLLE is reversible if you can hit on what is causing it and address it. However, even after effecting a cure, the fish will always be susceptible to it, thus you will need to always address the cause.
There have been a good deal of discussions here regarding HLLE. Do a search and I think you’ll find more info.
Your fish is still a juvenile, thus the spikes just may not be noticeable at this time.
I think your feeding schedule is adequate, keeping in mind that tangs need to graze. If your LR has not developed enough to support tangs' grazing requirments that you need to try and supplement this as much as you can.
When using vitimin supplements, be sure to allow the food to soak with it for an hr in the fridge. Since all my fish food is fresh seafoods and seaweeds, I mix all of that in when I do food prep. With processed foods, you will need to let the supplements soak in to the foods you offer. The exception will be the seaweed sheets, as the seaweed tends to break up pretty quick.

 

[tang_man_montreal]

Beth,
First and foremost, thank you for all your help in this matter. And thank you for posting up that link I told you about, I'm curious to the outcome of that thread. Just outta curiosity, What were your thoughts on it?
I strongly believe that my hippo is like this due to poor nutrition. When I got him from the previous owner, he was ONLY being fed a flake food, which was EXPIRED by 6 months!!! The Yellow tang had some fin rot, which has been cured since, and there is no longer any trace of it either.
In any case, I will get the Zoe, and Zoecon, along with the Vitamin C supplements as soon as I can. Do you suggest Zoe and Zoecon over Selcon? And any reasons?
As for their diet, I will start varying it, as you mentioned, and will try the salmon idea as well. I will also start them on Nori tonight.
Thank you so much for your great advice!

 

[beth]

I use both zoe and zoecon alternatively. If you are feeding 2x a day, then one feeding use zoe, then the other zoecon. Just know that zoecon can have a temporary effect on the efficiency of your skimmer, if you have one.
A lot of hippos get that pocked appearance on their face area which doesn’t really evolve into full blown HLLE. However, if you start to see white patches, as if the surface tissue of the fish has eroded away, then you are likely dealing with HLLE. I think you will be fine with following a good nutrition regime as well as maintaining optimum water quality in your tank.
That guy's opinion is very interesting. I'm not an electrical person by any means, but he certainly makes a case. However, there is just way too many people in this hobby, including "experts", who say otherwise. That being the case, it will take some doing to convince me otherwise. We'll see what kind of info comes up with the current thread running in the Equipment Forum. I know there are some electricians on the BB.