Bio balls necessary with LR?
- Thread starter jj48
- Start date
maeistero
Active Member
i know for a fact that it will not hurt to have both. i don't have anything but a fluval 304 and skimmer on my 55, and there is less than no ammonia detectable. i have 135lbs of live rock now, and about 6 fish (4damsels, 1 clown, 1 scooterblenny, 1 eel-like blenny, and a bunch of cleanercrewstuff). this tank isn't drilled, and is kinduvan experiment for me. it's been going fine for over a year (with a 1.5month acclimation). i like the acclimation and testing regularly technique. every tank is different, but live rock kicks butt. i'm going to try my next tank with no filtration, only water changes from this tank and TONS of lr, when my lease expires in august. 
blemmy_guy
Active Member
i have about 150 lbs of live rock and i run a wet/dry with bio balls, and a protein skimmer, and it works really well for me, some people even say you can replace the bio balls with small pieces if live rock... but i havnt tried that one, dont fix what aint broke is what im thinking. any way good luck todd
T
thomas712
Guest
Having a wet/dry on my 90 was never a problem, never. I have live rock and live sand as well. Never let people tell you bio balls are a nitrate factory because it isn't true. Just use a pre filter of filter floss and change it regular, clean the bio balls a few times per year and you good to go.
I finally did take my bio balls out, but this was do to replacing them with another mode of filtration, a 55 gallon refugium with DSB and chaeto macro aglae, so instead of a breadown of ammona and nitrites --> into nitrates happening in the wet/dry, I now have a breakdown of ammonia and nitrites and a breakdown of nitrates happening in the fuge. The wet/dry has just become a sump for my equipment.
Thomas
I finally did take my bio balls out, but this was do to replacing them with another mode of filtration, a 55 gallon refugium with DSB and chaeto macro aglae, so instead of a breadown of ammona and nitrites --> into nitrates happening in the wet/dry, I now have a breakdown of ammonia and nitrites and a breakdown of nitrates happening in the fuge. The wet/dry has just become a sump for my equipment.
Thomas
blemmy_guy
Active Member
Thanx Thomas, its nice to hear a vote of confidence about the bio-balls !! todd
mudplayerx
Active Member
Having bio-balls in a marine setup are just going to raise your nitrate levels. Sounds crazy, but it is true.
jlem
Active Member
Originally posted by mudplayerx
Having bio-balls in a marine setup are just going to raise your nitrate levels. Sounds crazy, but it is true.
The truth is that Bioballs are just plastic and do nothing but provide surface area for Beneficial bacteria. Any tank will run into nitrate problems if it is not maintained regardless if you have bioballs or not
mudplayerx
Active Member
Dunno if that was sarcasm ^
I'm just repeating what I read in Aquarium Fish Magazine and "Natural Reef Systems" by Tullock. Most modern sources say bioballs create in increase in nitrates, and the level drops back to normal when the bioballs are removed. Nobody knows why.
I'm just repeating what I read in Aquarium Fish Magazine and "Natural Reef Systems" by Tullock. Most modern sources say bioballs create in increase in nitrates, and the level drops back to normal when the bioballs are removed. Nobody knows why.
snipe
Active Member
I have seen a bunch of diffrent stuff on each side of this one. I would say if you have enough cleanup crew then bioballs wouldnt hurt but if you have a small cleanup crew then there will be alot of left over waste and food to make it into the bioballs and cause nitrate problems. One way to stop this is to use a piece of foam to collect all the big stuff and let the water pass through.
T
thomas712
Guest
I see it's time for the Pros and Cons of bio balls post again.
Pros of bio balls.
First off, these little guys are great for starting a tank, they help tons in the cycle by breaking down the more toxic ammonia and nitrites into the less toxic nitrates and keep the oxyegen high.
Bio balls offer more surface area than an equal amount of a replacement item like liverock.
They have far more ability to oxygenate the water than liverock.
The more oxegen supplied to the process results in a faster reaction capability of the filter to change the breakdown process.
The amount of surface area contained in bio balls supports a far greater amount of nitrifying bacteria, The amount of nitrifying bacteria in any system is dependent on two factors here. The amount of food supplied and the amount of surface area available. Due to the round shape with the little spikes these little balls have much to offer in surface area.
With maintanance; to repeat; With maintanance these bio balls have a lot to offer any wet/dry sump application. They are not a bomb waiting to go off, they are not nitrate factories anymore than any other mechanical filter. Using a filter floss before the bio balls removes much of what people erouniously think of as to much maitanence with bio balls. Just change the filter floss weekly or bi weekly when ever needed.
Cons of bio balls.
The do tend to get dirty, therefore they will collect a certain amount of slime and junk on them. This leads to a nitrate buildup. In larger amounts the nitrates can lead to a problem, typically nitrates above say 30 ppm.
This initself is the cheif complant about them and the big con that everyone talks about.
One of the big reasons that people change or remove the bio balls is to go to a more natural type of filtration. The other is that they do not want to hassle with cleaning them.
Bio balls are not the only way to filter the water. Liverock will work in its place by upping the water level in the sump and using it much in the same way you would in the main tank. Others just replace them with liverock rubble and let the water splash over them, but in my opinion this is not as efficant as the bio balls. Also my opinion that if liverock rubble is used without raising the water level the rock itself will still get as dirty as any bioball and will need cleaning itself, but since I have not personally gone this route I can not speak from any experience on the liverock in the sump.
In the end it is the one who owns the system who must decide how or what method they will choose to filter the water. What ever the choice is the goal is the same, to achieve excellent water conditions.
Anyone with a reef tank or saltwater tank must have a method of removing nitrates. Some just feel safer without the bio balls. Some setup refugiums instead for instance. I'm one that finally did, so I removed my bio balls in order to have the proccess of breakdown of the ammonia,nitrites AND nitrates in the refugium instead.
Hope that helps some, and I hope that I did justice to both sides.
Pros of bio balls.
First off, these little guys are great for starting a tank, they help tons in the cycle by breaking down the more toxic ammonia and nitrites into the less toxic nitrates and keep the oxyegen high.
Bio balls offer more surface area than an equal amount of a replacement item like liverock.
They have far more ability to oxygenate the water than liverock.
The more oxegen supplied to the process results in a faster reaction capability of the filter to change the breakdown process.
The amount of surface area contained in bio balls supports a far greater amount of nitrifying bacteria, The amount of nitrifying bacteria in any system is dependent on two factors here. The amount of food supplied and the amount of surface area available. Due to the round shape with the little spikes these little balls have much to offer in surface area.
With maintanance; to repeat; With maintanance these bio balls have a lot to offer any wet/dry sump application. They are not a bomb waiting to go off, they are not nitrate factories anymore than any other mechanical filter. Using a filter floss before the bio balls removes much of what people erouniously think of as to much maitanence with bio balls. Just change the filter floss weekly or bi weekly when ever needed.
Cons of bio balls.
The do tend to get dirty, therefore they will collect a certain amount of slime and junk on them. This leads to a nitrate buildup. In larger amounts the nitrates can lead to a problem, typically nitrates above say 30 ppm.
This initself is the cheif complant about them and the big con that everyone talks about.
One of the big reasons that people change or remove the bio balls is to go to a more natural type of filtration. The other is that they do not want to hassle with cleaning them.
Bio balls are not the only way to filter the water. Liverock will work in its place by upping the water level in the sump and using it much in the same way you would in the main tank. Others just replace them with liverock rubble and let the water splash over them, but in my opinion this is not as efficant as the bio balls. Also my opinion that if liverock rubble is used without raising the water level the rock itself will still get as dirty as any bioball and will need cleaning itself, but since I have not personally gone this route I can not speak from any experience on the liverock in the sump.
In the end it is the one who owns the system who must decide how or what method they will choose to filter the water. What ever the choice is the goal is the same, to achieve excellent water conditions.
Anyone with a reef tank or saltwater tank must have a method of removing nitrates. Some just feel safer without the bio balls. Some setup refugiums instead for instance. I'm one that finally did, so I removed my bio balls in order to have the proccess of breakdown of the ammonia,nitrites AND nitrates in the refugium instead.
Hope that helps some, and I hope that I did justice to both sides.
blemmy_guy
Active Member
thanx thomas, i was wondering if that would pop up here!!
ophiura
Active Member
As I've know I've said before, the drawback of bioballs is that they are too efficient at converting ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. But I would rather have an excess of nitrate than a backlog of ammonia. Every tank is different, every tank can be modified if problems come up...but the bioball nitrate "factory" thing drives me nuts. It is all relative.
jlem
Active Member
Originally posted by ophiura
the drawback of bioballs is that they are too efficient at converting ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate.
How can they be too efficient if their purpose is to reduce ammonia and nitrites
? that would be like saying that an umbrella is too efficient because it keeps you totally dry. If they where inefficient then you would have ammonia and nobody would use them. Bioballs do the exactly what they are intended to do which is to take care of ammonia and nitrites.
T
thomas712
Guest
Originally posted by jlem
How can they be too efficient if their purpose is to reduce ammonia and nitrites
? OK jlem follow along.
I think in the case that they would be too efficient is if there was a DSB somewhere in the equation. If there were then the bio balls would be robbing the DSB of proper nutrients, I know it will still have nitrates to process but the breakdown should be happening at the surface and inside of a DSB in order for it to function properly from start to finish.
Least thats one theory.
BTW did you ever put a background on that tank of yours?
Thomas
ophiura
Active Member
Originally posted by jlem
How can they be too efficient if their purpose is to reduce ammonia and nitrites
? Exactly.
They very rapidly convert ammonia and nitrite to nitrate...but the logic is that the nitrate is then basically not available to the anaerobic bacteria deep in LR and a DSB. The idea being that those microbes act preferentially on nitrate produced in nearby aerobic layers or sand/rock. So, a bioball system very quickly converts ammonia but in effect, so the theory goes, allows nitrates to build up because this nitrate is produced far from anaerobic bacteria that break down nitrates. In addition all the debris they supposedly collect, this leads people to the "nitrate factory" claim.
I don't think that is terribly clear like I want it. :notsure: Hmmm, but I want to say that I am in no way against bioballs. To the contrary, I believe they are incredibly effective...and IMO you can't be too efficient in breaking down ammonia. IMO you are basically accepting that you can be too efficient if you are a follower of the "nitrate factory" logic against bioballs. As I said, I would prefer a nitrate problem to an ammonia problem and in some tanks without much LR, with a high bioload or with big eaters, this may be something to consider. I can take some time to address a nitrate problem, but don't have much to work with in an ammonia spike. So I definitely encourage people to think about things before just pulling them out as many argue.
mudplayerx
Active Member
Originally posted by jlem
How can they be too efficient if their purpose is to reduce ammonia and nitrites
? that would be like saying that an umbrella is too efficient because it keeps you totally dry. If they where inefficient then you would have ammonia and nobody would use them. Bioballs do the exactly what they are intended to do which is to take care of ammonia and nitrites. ...because too many nitrates are just as bad. Nitrates are toxic as well, just less toxic. You will also have alage blooms in a tank with high nitatrates.