Biowheels are great: prove me wrong

[broomer5]

Interesting -
Diatom - I agree with you - excellent reply.
Adrian's comment makes a lot of sense to me as well.
He said "Now Im not sure if this is a myth or a fact, but In the past Ive read that tanks using a DLSB and bio media still accumulate nitrates because the bacteria on the media out competes the bacteria in the sand."
IMO - As long as the person tending the tank maintains a fairly constant feeding schedule and constant bioload, there should be a fairly constant supply of ammonia produced by the inhabitants. The ammonia is diffused into the water, some of which is avialable to the live rock, some to the live sand bed and some to the biomedia.
By running an external filter with biomedia, or a wet/dry with bioballs, in conjunction with having a deep live sand bed & live rock, it would seem that you are in essence depriving the bacteria in the sandbed and live rock "some" level of ammonia neccessary for sustaining these bacteria, allowing them to reproduce and colonize. You may be robbing the sandbed bacteria population of some of it's prime energy fuel sources - ammonia.
I would imagine there becomes a "balanced" number of bacteria given the energy source available to them to survive and reproduce.
Hard to say "how much" of a positive or negative affect this would have - but an interesting thing to think about for sure.
Good topic Surfin Sam !

 

[kris walker]

Hi again,
"The glass of the tank does more than biowheels. The top portion of a sandbed embarrasses a biowheel by far."
Neat, Sammy, have you done a test to confirm this in a tank with nothing except glass or a DSB and a bioload? I'm curious just how sure you are of this. Adrian, you agree with this, have you confirmed it with a test, or is it something you've heard?
Adrian, still beating the fish so that I understand. "bio balls might not have such a problem with accumulating wastes ..." I no nothing about bio balls, and am not trying to argue for or against them. "...why one thinks bio media will support a larger bio load over sand". I don't know, but I was mostly under the impression *until recently* that a DSB was only good for nitrates.
You've read "...tanks using a DLSB and bio media still accumulate nitrates because the bacteria on the media out compete the bacteria in the sand." This doesn't make sense to me for a tank with a mature DLSB. As you have taught me, the DLSB can be divided into an aerobic and anerobic part. So both parts have individual capacities. From what I think I have read from "DSB people" (hey Burn! ) only the upper 1 inch or so of a DSB is aerobic. The lower 3 inches are anerobic. So it seems to me the anerobic capacity is much larger than the aerobic capacity. So it seems to me you will always get rid of nitrates much faster in a DSB than ammonia/nitrite. And this is why I don't understand that statement you read. I guess the only way I can understand that statement is if you had a bioload that was too great for the DLSB to handle. In that case, the total aerobic capacity (LS+biowheels) is able to process the ammon/nitrite, but the anerobic capacity is not large enough to keep up.
And I agree with broomer, it makes sense that a balance would form.
thanks again everyone,
sam

 

[bbreaux1]

im not real experienced or anything but im thinking a bio wheel would be interesting to see on the end of a skimmer. most of the waste would be removed out of the tank by the skimmer and keeping the waste that could build up on the biowheel off of it and any amonia or nitrites left would be taken out by the bio wheels. then a dsb to help control the nitrates.

 

[tiffany]

jond, how did you make the switch and what were your nitrates before and after?!?! I am having a nitrate problem adn am slowly removing my wheels and adding a dsb.

 

[adrian]

Your right Sam, it is said that only the top inch or so of a DSB is aerobic, but that does not mean that after the 1 inch point the rest is anearobic, the oxygen level diminishes as you go deeper, this is why I often say there are zones of little to no oxygen, and there are different varieties of bacteria that thrive in all levels of a dsb. On the other hand, yes, eventually at a certain depth depending on grain size the bed becomes fully anearobic where mostly the bacteria that break down nitrates live. Its really abstract but you have to think how much more surface area sand has over bio media, each individual grain has several sides and pores in which bacteria can colonate, and with creatures that feed on this bacteria constanlty eating it and making way for new growth the possibilities are endless, of course factors such as open sand surface area, grain size, depth ect. also paly a role in how efficient a DSB is. On the other hand bio media allows for only so much bactria colonization and eventually becomes full, where does new bacteria go? Do they just stop reproducing? That one Im not sure of, seems to me there would be a constant battle for space. As for the glass statement by Sammy, no I dont think there have been any tests done, I think Sammy was more reffering to the fact that bio media is based on surface area and in theory bacteria will colonate where ever there is space and the proper conditions, and the sides of a tank have a lot of surface area, of course I would think algae out competes bacteria for space on the glass The statement I reffered makes sense to me, then again I cant say if its true or not, I will try to find the article, but with all the books and mags I have that might be impossible But Ill try none the less

 

[adrian]

 

[kris walker]

Thanks again guys. And take no offense to the title of this post--it was to get a response out of you!
sam

 

[adrian]

Great topic Sam, even though its a battle thats been fought time and time again I think everyone learns something new each time, on to the next topic

 

[jond]

Tiffany,
I have an Emporer 280, so I only had one wheel. I first just pulled the wheel and kept a close watch on the water parameters for about a week. My Nitrates had climed to about 40-50. I watched the Nitrates begin to drop, so I started the switch to the sand. I did a 5 gal. water change with a section of garden hose to siphon out the CC. This got about half of the CC out. I waited a week while watching the water quality. I did another 3-4 gal. change and got almost all but a little CC out. Next I added Florida Keys LS. I did this using a funnel attached to a peice of 2" PVC pipe. This helped get the sand to the bottom of the tank. It still clouded bad, but it was clear the next morning. I has now been 7 days and my nitrates are at 30-40 ppm. So far it is looking great.
Good luck.

 

[wally]

A quote from Marineland.com
"Constructed of pleated, super-dense fiber, a 7" wide BIO-Wheel contains 9.39 miles of surface area for bacterial growth. And because the BIO-Wheel contacts the air as it turns, the bacteria are exposed to 30,000 times more oxygen than an undergravel filter. More bacteria, exposed to more oxygen, work many times harder to eliminate toxic ammonia and nitrite. That means a healthier environment for plants and fish."
I do realize that they are talking about comparing it to an UGF but the fact that they are exposed to air does make a huge difference as the more oxygen they come into contact with the better the bacteria work. Bio-wheels are used by sewage treatment plants all over the world to do the very same thing infact thats where the idea to use them in aquaria.
And 9.39 miles of surface area is nothing to sneeze at, and thats per wheel.

 

[coraltrapper5020]

I've worked with bio wheels on the MARS system. I had more nitrate problems in my saltwater section then my goldfish tanks. "The Bio wheels were desinged for fresh water." Told to me by a marineland rep. So I my self do not use bio wheels on my salt tanks but on my fresh give me nothing else but biowheeled filters.

 

[adrian]

The debate was about whether or not they are needed, they do provide a ton of surface area, but the fact that they are exposed to the air and "work harder to eliminate toxic ammonia and nitrite" is the problem with bio media entirely, they are not efficient at removing nitrates, which a DBS is as well as removing ammonia and nitrites. So the thing is would you rather have bio media that is only capable of breaking down ammonia into nitrites, and nitrites into nitrates, causing an eventual build up in nitrates, or would you rather have a DSB that is capable of completing the nitrogen cycle and transforming ammonia into nitrites, nitrites into nitrates, and nitrates into free nitrogen. Now no ones saying bio media dosnt work, or that its "bad" for a tank, nitrates are only harmfull in very large quantities to most marine creatures, were just saying they are not needed in conjustion with natural filtration. Heres a good article for those interested:
http://rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm

 

[wally]

"they are not efficient at removing nitrates, which a DBS is as well as removing ammonia and nitrites. So the thing is would you rather have bio media that is only capable of breaking down ammonia into nitrites, and nitrites into nitrates, causing an eventual build up in nitrates, or would you rather have a DSB that is capable of completing the nitrogen cycle and transforming ammonia into nitrites, nitrites into nitrates, and nitrates into free nitrogen."
Actually I want (and have) both. You just can't have to much area for the bacteria to grow on IMHO. The Emperor 400 also moves 400GPH and it only costs $42.00 online. Even if all you use it for is water movement its a great deal.

 

[kris walker]

Not to drag this on any further, but Wally, that is what I have come to think as well. It just doesn't hurt to have the extra aerobic surface area. As stated by brommer, a balance will be achieved in time as long as the bioload is not too great, in which case the nitrates will rise.
sam

 

[kris walker]

Still going, nothing outlasts the biowheel debate, it keeps going on and ......
Well, I was almost asleep when what Adrian read finally made sense to me: "In the past I've read that tanks using a DLSB and bio media still accumulate nitrates because the bacteria on the media out competes the bacteria in the sand."
This observation doesn't make sense strictly on the basis of aerobic and anerobic surface areas because the nitrate processing capacity and bioload never changes with the addition of biowheels.
However, I am fairly certain I understand Adrian's quote now, and the key is water circulation. I hope this makes sense. The reason a DSB is approximately anerobic is because of low circulation rates through it. This means it takes a long time for nitrate fresh out of biowheels to make it down into the DSB for processing. However, nitrate produced in the aerobic part of the DSB doesn't have far to go before being processed by the anerobic part.
So if this is right, then adding a biowheel to an existing DSB will actually *increase* nitrate levels in the water column because they are out-competing the aerobic bacteria in the upper DSB, and since the biowheels output their nitrates directly into the water column, it takes longer for those nitrates to make their way down into the DSB for processing. This may not be true for a biowheel/LR combo, since biowheel-produced nitrate can probably circulate into anerboic parts of LR faster than into the DSB.
I'm sorry if this was obvious to most, it just wasn't to me. And sorry for the length, but I'm so glad I now see the connection between both observations, such as that Adrian reported, and common sense regarding the nitrogen cycle.

sam