Blue Hippo Tang needs help - lymphocystis or ich?

I bought this Hippo Tang for 2 weeks, and then found some crystal liked white spots one day. It lasted for just overnight, and most have gone the other day. These spots keep coming back but disappear fast. Now, not much on the body but on the fins. I don't see it clearly whether these white spots are lympho or ich? BUT, the hippo does scratch her fins to the rocks. Seems this hippo feels itchy. This behavioral makes me feel more like ich.
I already did hyposalinity once for 7 weeks (without Hippo at that time) because of ich. It went well but now I can't afford to do it again (too much work to separate all inverts and rocks).
I am in the process of setting up a refugium. Current nitrate is damn high. Not sure but it was 40 before my 35 gallon water change a few days ago. My tank is of 75 gallon plus around 15 gallon for the sump.
I want to take a video and post here but my good quality video cam was currently not in US.
Not much thought at this point but pray...let me know your thought....
PS: I have been planning to get a hippo for a long time even though I heard hippo is easy to get ich/lympo.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Hi,
If you did hypo in a separate tank like you should, and then returnd the fish back into the DT that was infected with the parasite...it got reinfected.
Ich is a parasite and the Tangs are easy stressed, so the parasite gets the better of them and they get it fast. The tang can't get ich unless it's in the system.
The tank must remain fishless for 6 to 8 weeks to allow the ich parasite to go thru all it's stages of life, and without a host (fish) in the tank the parasite dies off.
So you need to remove all the fish from your DT and let the tank sit empty of fish for 6 to 8 weeks and treat all the fish for the ich parasite.
 

novahobbies

Well-Known Member
That does indeed sound like ich. Flower has the right of it here, the display tank is going to HAVE to sit fishless for 8 weeks. You can continue to run your lights and keep all your corals and inverts in the tank, but if there's even ONE fish, you won't break the cycle.
Remove all the fish into hospital tanks and treat the ich on the fish with hyposalinity. These two methods are the only way you'll be able to be completely sure your ich is gone. If you have more than just the hippo tang, I would recommend you treat him in a separate tank by himself, since they're so prone to the disease.
 
Hi Flower, thx. for your feedback.
I know all you said...Unfortunately I can't do this (again). Last time, I did similar with Beth's suggestion. I was in lack of budget/equipments. Finally, I did hypo in the MT with all inverts/rocks removed (inverts went to a 5-gallon tank, rocks went to a big rubber can).
I know blue hippo tang easily got ich/lympo. My strategy now is:
- frequent water change (may be 15 gallons per 5-day)
- net the hippo and do copper in a separate tank for a short period of time (my QT is not set up yet), if needed.
- improve the water quality (refugium)
- feed the fish well (I use sea weed, lactice, frozen brine shrimp and pellets).
I only have 6 fishes in my tank. The hippo and one yellow tank are new. Others are survivors from the last ich burst out. So far, the hippo is the only one having the problem. I prefer to let all the fishes to fight within the current environment. I know most of them will survive. If I take them out and put them in another environment, some won't make it. I will just let the hippo pass if she can't make it. If I apply coppy to her and ich comes back to her again, I will then apply coppy again. See how many times she can stand...
Also still wonder whether it is ich or lympo. I think the tank is cleared with ich already. The source could be the hippo itself. I am lazy and run the risk of not treating this new comer with any means before putting it to the tank.
Can ich be developed within the system instead of from the outside?
I got this hippo at very good price. It is around 4 inches long for only $40, from a LFS that I have good relationship with. I went back to see other unsold hippo in the same tank. They all do well without problem.
 
Thanks Novahobbies...
One big problem is that: If my wife and in-laws see me to do a big project in treating fishes again, they are going to kill me. They all complain that I spend too much time on the tank and not taking care of the child - now is 5 months old...^_^...
I can only do something that is simple...
BTW, my tank is full of different things: corals, anemone, shrimps, helmet craps, urchin, starfish. The flame scollap has just passed (I guess the nitrate is too high).
I like this hippo tang. My wife often tell my 5-month old child this Hippo Tang is called Blue Baby.
So, can Ich be developed within the system?
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForestAquarist http:///t/392891/blue-hippo-tang-needs-help-lymphocystis-or-ich#post_3491685
Hi Flower, thx. for your feedback.
I know all you said...Unfortunately I can't do this (again). Last time, I did similar with Beth's suggestion. I was in lack of budget/equipments. Finally, I did hypo in the MT with all inverts/rocks removed (inverts went to a 5-gallon tank, rocks went to a big rubber can).
I know blue hippo tang easily got ich/lympo. My strategy now is:
- frequent water change (may be 15 gallons per 5-day)
- net the hippo and do copper in a separate tank for a short period of time (my QT is not set up yet), if needed.
- improve the water quality (refugium)
- feed the fish well (I use sea weed, lactice, frozen brine shrimp and pellets).
I only have 6 fishes in my tank. The hippo and one yellow tank are new. Others are survivors from the last ich burst out. So far, the hippo is the only one having the problem. I prefer to let all the fishes to fight within the current environment. I know most of them will survive. If I take them out and put them in another environment, some won't make it. I will just let the hippo pass if she can't make it. If I apply coppy to her and ich comes back to her again, I will then apply coppy again. See how many times she can stand...
Also still wonder whether it is ich or lympo. I think the tank is cleared with ich already. The source could be the hippo itself. I am lazy and run the risk of not treating this new comer with any means before putting it to the tank.
Can ich be developed within the system instead of from the outside?
I got this hippo at very good price. It is around 4 inches long for only $40, from a LFS that I have good relationship with. I went back to see other unsold hippo in the same tank. They all do well without problem.
As soon as you put the tang back in...it will get sick again. The constant treatments will eventually kill it anyway, also once you add the still stressed tang, it will be re-infected...by shear numbers it may do in the other healthy fish.
I can tell you what I did years ago when I was in your situation. I left all my fish in the tank, and if they made it they made it....I feed them fresh garlic juice on thier food to help build up their immunity. I got a couple of cleaner shrimp that actually clean and eat the ich spots off the fish. I did not add any new fish. My goal was to just keep what I had healthy.
Fast forward a year...none of my fish died. I hadn't seen any ich for months. I dared not add another fish but at least all was well. I did add corals and inverts over that time. Well there came a day that I had to move...talk about total stress on my fish. All I lost in the move was one claener shrimp. To my amazement...no ich outbreak. I got brave and added a new fish...no ich.
I guess the fish stayed so healthy the ich couldn't breed and what managed to was eaten by the cleaners shrimps. So after a year and six months...my tank was finally ich free. A QT would have worked much better and faster, but my fish were so large I didn't have a QT that could hold all my fish for 8 weeks. A QT to start with would have prevented it all. I have to tell you, it was a sad thing to not be able to add a single fish to my tank in all that time....but it worked.
P.S.
1. Frozen mysis not brine.
2. Believe it or not water changes are stressful too, my tang broke out in ich with every water change, and it would start all over...hold off and only do what you have to... once a month. Ich is a parasite that attacks stressed fish, not a water quality issue.
3. No pellets...try dried Nori sheets or other brand of seaweed
4. Macroalgae in a refugium will do wonders for water quality.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForestAquarist http:///t/392891/blue-hippo-tang-needs-help-lymphocystis-or-ich#post_3491688
So, can Ich be developed within the system?
Ich is a parasite...a tiny critter that lives off of other creatures. It could not just develope...it was introduced into your system in water from another system or from another fish that was infected. This is the reason people use a quarantine tank...to prevent a nasty that might be on the new fish from infecting the whole tank and causing the nightmare you now find yourself in.
An ich spot is an full grown parasite, it falls off and appears to die....and then it's eggs hatch and the little baby ich are free swimming...seeking a host so it can attach and live and the cycle continues. They lodge in the fishes gills and kill it, the ones on their body itches and is miserable, stressing the fish more. Cleaner shrimp will set up a little cleaning station, for lack of a better way to put it..the fish will go to it to get the ich parasite removed, I have even seen fish spread their gills so the shrimp can get into them to really get the bugs out. The shrimp won't clear the tank of ich, but they will help the fish survive by clearing their gills, and feel better so they are not so itchy.
 
Hi Beth...How are u lately? If I set up a QT, I have to keep it continuously running with a pump (even nothing inside), right? I am afraid my wife will give me hard time for wasting electricity.
Thanks Flower. I couple of questions:
- what is the difference in using brine vs mysis shrimp?
- why no pellets?
My friend grows a lot of algae and he said they over grow, and so will share some with me for starting my refugium. Since my birthday is coming, my wife basically allows me to buy a RO/DI filter now. I hope these two initiatives will improve my water quality (especially the damn high nitrate) substantially. Still not sure what kind of RO/DI filter I should buy...Is this one good enough for my 75 gallon tank? http://www.**************.com/brs-5-stage-plus-ro-di-system-75gpd.html
Temperature is also an issue. I am located in NYC. Summer is hot enough. I think all my shrimps ( 1 fire, 1 clearner and 3 pep) died because of the temperature. Just measured the temperature. It is almost 86F now. It often goes up to 86F in summer. I think in 2 more weeks, the summer will be totally gone. By then, I will add two cleaner shrimps to the tank to help the fishes. Hopefully, before next summer, I can find a good and cheap second hand chiller. I heard a good new one costs $500. It is definitely sucidal if I am going to tell my wife I need to spend this amount. Currently, all corals in my tank are those easy-to-keep ones (like mushroom and polyps). I hope to put more gorgerous ones once all temperature and water quality is right.
When I came back last night, I saw most white spots on the hippo has gone. Thanks God...
As for changing water, I really only to start seeing the white spots on the hippo developed right after the big water change last time (around 35 gallon change). Maybe as what you said too stressful for her. Maybe I need to do the water change more seamless --- change less water, do not turn off the pump/power head...
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForestAquarist http:///t/392891/blue-hippo-tang-needs-help-lymphocystis-or-ich#post_3491816
Hi Beth...How are u lately? If I set up a QT, I have to keep it continuously running with a pump (even nothing inside), right? I am afraid my wife will give me hard time for wasting electricity. You need a piece of PVC pipe so the fish has someplace to hide to not be stressed.Unless you leave the display tank without any fish for 8 weeks you are wasting your time.
Thanks Flower. I couple of questions:
- what is the difference in using brine vs mysis shrimp? brine is like fish candy, not very nutritious. Mysis is good for them.
- why no pellets? They just pollute the tank adding to your phosphate problem, that feeds the algae problem
My friend grows a lot of algae and he said they over grow, and so will share some with me for starting my refugium. Since my birthday is coming, my wife basically allows me to buy a RO/DI filter now. I hope these two initiatives will improve my water quality (especially the damn high nitrate) substantially. Still not sure what kind of RO/DI filter I should buy...Is this one good enough for my 75 gallon tank? http://www.**************.com/brs-5-stage-plus-ro-di-system-75gpd.html I use a Culligan unit so I am not familiar with the one you have here, so I'm no use to you on this.
Temperature is also an issue. I am located in NYC. Summer is hot enough. I think all my shrimps ( 1 fire, 1 clearner and 3 pep) died because of the temperature. Just measured the temperature. It is almost 86F now. It often goes up to 86F in summer. I think in 2 more weeks, the summer will be totally gone. By then, I will add two cleaner shrimps to the tank to help the fishes. Hopefully, before next summer, I can find a good and cheap second hand chiller. I heard a good new one costs $500. It is definitely sucidal if I am going to tell my wife I need to spend this amount. Currently, all corals in my tank are those easy-to-keep ones (like mushroom and polyps). I hope to put more gorgerous ones once all temperature and water quality is right. 84-86 is actually what reef critters prefer, we keep the temp down in hopes of slowing down algae or bacteria blooms...granting us more time to fix it if something goes wrong.My reef even would go to 90 once in a while and all was well.
When I came back last night, I saw most white spots on the hippo has gone. Thanks God...That just means the adults dropped off...now comes the egg stage and the free swimming stage...the fish is not cured of ich.
As for changing water, I really only to start seeing the white spots on the hippo developed right after the big water change last time (around 35 gallon change). Maybe as what you said too stressful for her. Maybe I need to do the water change more seamless --- change less water, do not turn off the pump/power head...
Every little change in the water, even putting your hand in the tank...stresses a fish because it's a scary thing, you are messing with their world. A bit of stress happens in everyones life...even fish. The ich parasite gains an opportunity and attaches to the stressed fish...completing the cycle to begin again.
Until your system is clear of the parasite, it will keep infecting the fish until it is dead. Everytime you remove the fish, treat it with copper. and then return it to the main tank that is infested with the ich parasite... it will get re-infected. Constantly removing the fish and treating it will eventually kill it from stress as well. Spend some of your $500.00 on as good sized QT to house all your fish until it is clear of the parasite....8 weeks.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
The only electrical expense associated with running a QT is quite negligible, since you certainly don't need high powered lighting. Just the cost of a couple of pumps and a heater in winter.
86 degs in your house??? You don't use an ac?
I used Airwaterice RO/DI because they are good and the one I chose, Dual Home Reef, gave me quality water for my reef as well as quality water for my fridge and ice dispenser; all for less than $200.
Maybe tell your wife that fish is your hobby and you want to spend money on your hobby within reason?? I know.....none of my business.
Rather than doing major water changes, just do a 1 gal water change daily. That, in addition to whatever fresh water you add in as a result of evaporation. Then, occasionally, just do a minor cleanup as needed. This is much healthier for your aquatic animals then doing major overhauls.
 
Beth - I already have extra heaters and pump. I bought them last time for the inverts when I performed hypo in the main tank. For 86F, I meant the water inside the tank. AC won't help much in my living room where my tank is located. 1 gallon of water change daily seems negligible....No?!
Flower - Ok, I will buy Mysis shrimp then. Reef prefers higher temp? I thought corals (especially those hard corals) can't survive with high temperature...No?!
I do frequent water change mainly want to continuously take some ich out.
Damn. The hippo has obvious white spots today, especially on her right fins. She is scratching her fins on rocks again...
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForestAquarist http:///t/392891/blue-hippo-tang-needs-help-lymphocystis-or-ich#post_3491989
Flower - Ok, I will buy Mysis shrimp then. Reef prefers higher temp? I thought corals (especially those hard corals) can't survive with high temperature...No?!
Hi,
I am saying that the temps are not so high you need to worry, and run get an expensive chiller when you should spend your extra cash on a QT large enough to hold all your fish so you can clear your system of ich. Some corals like the lower temps such as Pagoda and Xenia, other corals like it warm. You have to check on your indivual corals and their needs to decide what that happy temp might be. You have to run your system with the needs of your critters in mind. Upping the temp is often done when ich is found, I don't know why really except to maybe keep the fish happier in a more natural surrounding since the sea where they come from, is warmer than 78 degrees...but that is only my assumption.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
The actual room does contribute to tank temp, especially if there is no ac running.
With ich, there is nothing much you can do but QT all of your fish.
You can set up a large rubbermaid container for now for a QT to accommodate all your fish. Then, once this is resolved, set up a smaller QT to use for all new fish. Otherwise, you will continue to struggle with ich for the duration that you are in this hobby. Or leave your fish in the main tank and move all your other things out. But, still you must get a QT, or, don't buy new fish.
 
Autumn has come. It is cool enough now in NYC. The tank is below 78F, and so I put the heater up last night, and try to keep the tank at 82F (a bit higher so as to let Ich cycle run faster).
I still need one more clown fish, but of course can't buy one yet since clown fish seems also to be prone to ich. Twelve clown fishes died in the last ich out-burst. I think for this time, the ich was not from the hippo carried from the LFS. I think it is because the hypo last time didn't clear up the ich. I think I should have left that hypo run for 10 weeks. My damsels, scopas and yellow tangs didn't get re-infected after the hypo probably because they have good immune. I saw the scopas tang last time got very bad ich (if Beth still remember the video that I took) and injured body (because of scratching the rocks) but it totally recover during hypo. Since hippo is prone to ich, that's why this new comer got infected. It scratched the rocks like crazy last night and also have a bigger white spot (like lymphocystis) near her nose (I guess this spot will disappear; let's keep the fingers crossed).
I think I will try to do 1 or 2 gallons daily water changes to see how it goes. If things getting worse, I think I will do the same kind of hypo again then. That is: let the fishes stay in the main tank and lower down the salinity; and put rocks/inverts somewhere else. Hope I am lucky to beat the ich infection/re-infection probability. I wish those hatched BB ich won't attach to the hippo that easily.
BTW, if I do hypo, I can't set up the refugium right now, correct? Those macroalgae (or any other suitable kind) also can't stand for low salinity, right?
 
Seems other fishes also got infected and feel itchy. I am going to do the hyposalinity procedure again, in the main display tank.
This time, I am planning to buy a 20 gallon second hand tank + a low power waver + a simple lamp (I already have a simple filtration system), and put 50% of my rocks and all inverts there.
For the main display tank, I will, like last time, let the sand stay there together with the fishes. Besides, I want to leave 50% of my rocks there. I know those good organism/bacteria on the rocks will die out if I let them in low salinity. But, so long as it is okay when the procedure get done and it won't give strong negative effects when I put all inverts back, I am fine with it.
Any concern?
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
You can leave a small rock or 2 but not too much rock. Dying live rock will cause ammonia spike. The last thing sick fish need.
 
Finally, I did hypo and it has been 17 weeks now.
On the first 2 weeks, my hippo tang's white spots disappeared quickly. It swam well but I saw it lost it's eye sight and more and more difficult to catch food. I always need to put a lot of brine/mysis shrimps so that it could catch some (my big domino caught most of the food). This hippo tang died (without real signal) at the 9th week.
I found this big domino and another damsel fish were flashing all the time, and they didn't scratch their bodies on rocks/sand though. Sometime (especially after water changes) my scopas tang has minor white spots but they disappeared quickly. I just feel that there are still ich in the tang. How come? The salinity is 1.009 now and this hypo status has been 17 weeks. I just think those ich eggs might still survive because of the sand bed and some rocks still inside the tank.
Besides, I see my yellow tang's belly and fins appear to be dirty and this is not really dirt. Last time, I saw my previous yellow tang also have something similar and covered a bigger area. That yellow tang then became thin and passed. Now, I am afraid that this yellow tang will soon. Besides, this current yellow tang also losing its eye sight. It is less efficient in catching food now.
Questions:
- Should I continue to let this hyposalinity status going (since it seems still has ich)?
- Should I even lower the salinity further in order to make the ich die away faster?
- What should I do for this yellow tang?
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
What are you using to measure salinity?
Also, 17 weeks is too long to keep fish in hypo.
Can you post a picture of you yellow tang problem areas?
 
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