Blue Tang / White spots.

[lil_dozer]

Question.... I've had this Blue tang for several weeks. I'm aware that Blues are easily able to get ich if stressed. I have the yellow tang that has been in the tank for some time now and the other fish had been coming along fine. Since I've put the blue regal in I have been watching him every day. I was aware that the yellow tang may stress him out by chasing him or showing aggression. The yellow tang has shown no aggression towards the regal at all. Matter of fact, the regal never hid under a rock and has adjusted to the tank very well. No hiding, no darting, has looked pretty happy well go lucky. I have looked every day for several minutes several times out of the day at the regal and have not seen anything at all on the fish. Today I looked at him and there are several white spots on the body. I do not see any white spots on fins or tail which I thought showed up first. Counting these spots on about a 2 1/2 3 inch fish 7 spots. Now I've looked at the other fish:
2 clarki
1 six line
1 dragon goby
1 yellow tang
And I can't see a single thing at all.
I had my water tested at the lfs and he said water seems just fine. I'll have to test myself to give you exacts.
My question is, should I just monitor the fish and hope immune system holds strong or should I quarantine?
When I first got this tank which is a 125 I made the mistake of jump starting with some damsels. I ended up with ich. I waited the tank out for several months as you can see for my last post on this site. I do know that there are always parasites present on fish and it just takes stress to start up a break out.
Pretty much asking for advice since I actually have some corals as well on their way. I have a 30 to place them in if I had to but I wasn't sure on the bioload that would be affected in the 30.
Any info would definitely be helpful.
Should I wait it out being as I just saw them present or because it is a regal and they are most likely susceptible to this ich, quarantine?
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[tangx3]

the only reason that fish will get ich from stress is.............your tank has ich.
here's what i did. i put all my fishes in qt and treated with copper. let my DT fallow for 6 weeks. it gave me the peace of mind that no matter how stress they are, they won't ever get ich. it worked fine for me

 

[lil_dozer]

the tank had ich in early Dec. I took everything out and hypoed it for a month and a half. Only a few damsels. I hadnt put anything in the tank till The end of feb. All my fish are from a previous healthy tank. The only new addition is the blue tang which was bought several weeks ago. When I got him. He was placed in a QT tank for a week. He's been in the 125 for 2.weeks. I have only yesterday discovered the white spots. It was nothing then bang 7 spots in one day. I checked him the night before round 10 so eastern. I noticed spots 5pm eastern. next day. Brought some water to the lfs to check for immediate changes in the water. I bring him some on water change days which is every week. This was a special trip. The only thing I can think of is somehow he's stressed. The only other thing I can think of now ois if it's ich how am I gonna catch all these flippin fish. I have over 400 lbs in live rock. several of the corals are tissue splitting between rocks and more is coming in on the 16th. Should I still monitor or should I begin to go swimming?

 

[al mc]

Dozer...No doubt..you are in a bind. If you feel you have ich and you want to eliminate it you would have to QT and hypo (or copper, but I prefer hypo...have tried both, hypo seemed less stressful IMHO) all the fish and again let the DT go fishless for 6 weeks minimum.
I have two DT's. One at work. one at home. I set the one up at work about 2 years ago, and before I knew about SWF message board and hypo I had a similar ICH occurrence on a recently added Hippo Tang. I am ashamed to say that I used KICK ICH and the problem went away (all the white spots disappeared). I still have all the same fish 2 years later but know that I have the potential for another outbreak at any time and have not added any additional fish since.
With this in mind, I practice strict QTing and hypo all new arrivals at HOME
for 6 weeks before allowing them to enter the DT.

 

[lil_dozer]

I have a few questions to ask the board. When I last had ich in the tank in Dec. I researched as much as I could about the whole thing. In the beginning I was told to use kick ich, because it was a reef tank. When I used the kick ich it seemed to have gotten worse. The fins of the damsels were disappearing they became very stressed and started to become covered in sores. I began to research after the kick ich. Got ich, reef, meant quick fix "kick ich". That didn't work for me. At the time of this problem I had about 200 + rock in the tank. I had a CP light and felt I would grow with this tank since the 55 I set up because of the yellow tang and clarki's I ended up with as a gift when I had the 30. I had the 55 set up for quite a while. Kept it a fowler because I wasn't quite sure exactly what I wanted to do but knew I needed more room for the stressed "gifts" Since then I have lucked out with a reef ready 125 at a cost of 900 200 + rock and all major necessaries. I have since created a basement for the wet dry and so on through the floor in my house. Anyway. I chose the option of 3 damsels to set the whole thing up. I made the assumption that because of the high spike of ammonia and the bactirial change it caused the ich.
I ended up fishing out all rocks and buying a 20 gallon changing it into a QT. Placed the damsels in for 8 weeks. They healed and became healthy and I took them back to the lfs to donate to the local hospital. I didn't add anything to my tank for almost 2 months. When it came time I added the tang the clarki's and have added a six line plus a dragon goby.... had the tang and clarki's. The tank has been beautiful. No problems at all.
Here are my questions. In my research I have gathered the following info.
1. once there has been ich in your tank, even if you haven't placed anything in there to make sure the ich dies off {there will always be ich in your tank}
2. All fish carry parasites. All it takes for a weakened immune system or stress to cause the parasite to take over the fish and break out.
3. It's "possible" that a new addition to a tank no matter how long you hospital the fish, problems may accure once you have placed them in the DT.
4. You do not have to QT all fish in a tank once "ich" has been discovered on one fish. The new addition may have become stressed and can fight of the ich without having to be placed in a QT.
Today I have watched and taken a good look at the regal. The 7 spots that I have discovered the night before have not completely disappeared, however there are only 4 spots that I can see now. I can't find my stupid digital to even try and take a picture. ha. and even if I did I would not have any idea on how to post it so you could see.
Are all of the statements above true? Or am I reading this research wrong? Is it possible that some of the spots have fallen off? If I have only discovered the spots in one day would these spots disappear this quickly if it was ich? To me it doesn't look like sand. I do however have a very fine sand in the tank and he has been in and out of the rocks. Even at the very bottom where the rocks touch the sand I've created access to the very bottom with plenty of crevices for aeration.
Could it be possible that the regal got ich and is fighting off the parasite and if so will this parasite free swim in my tank only waiting for some great moment to attack all my fish?

 

[perfectdark]

Just as an FYI. To my knowledge every tank has ich, what activates it is stress which lowers a fishes immune system and allows it to present itself. I was told this by a couple of guys in my LFS who are marine biologists. Although I am not sure if other fish can sense that a tank mate has ich and in turn get stressed out by that making it possible for others to be suseptable. What other reason would you have to quarantine your fish? Isnt the medication for ICH safe for all fish? I never actually inquired about that part. Again I was told this and have no working knowledge of the truth to what I was told.

 

[perfectdark]

Just as an FYI. To my knowledge every tank has ich, what activates it is stress which lowers a fishes immune system and allows it to present itself. I was told this by a couple of guys in my LFS who are marine biologists. Although I am not sure if other fish can sense that a tank mate has ich and in turn get stressed out by that making it possible for others to be suseptable. What other reason would you have to quarantine your fish? Isnt the medication for ICH safe for all fish? I never actually inquired about that part. Again I was told this and have no working knowledge of the truth to what I was told.

 

[perfectdark]

Just as an FYI. To my knowledge every tank has ich, what activates it is stress which lowers a fishes immune system and allows it to present itself. I was told this by a couple of guys in my LFS who are marine biologists. Although I am not sure if other fish can sense that a tank mate has ich and in turn get stressed out by that making it possible for others to be suseptable. What other reason would you have to quarantine your fish? Isnt the medication for ICH safe for all fish? I never actually inquired about that part. Again I was told this and have no working knowledge of the truth to what I was told.

 

[perfectdark]

Just as an FYI. To my knowledge every tank has ich, what activates it is stress which lowers a fishes immune system and allows it to present itself. I was told this by a couple of guys in my LFS who are marine biologists. Although I am not sure if other fish can sense that a tank mate has ich and in turn get stressed out by that making it possible for others to be suseptable. What other reason would you have to quarantine your fish? Isnt the medication for ICH safe for all fish? I never actually inquired about that part. Again I was told this and have no working knowledge of the truth to what I was told.

 

[perfectdark]

Just as an FYI. To my knowledge every tank has ich, what activates it is stress which lowers a fishes immune system and allows it to present itself. I was told this by a couple of guys in my LFS who are marine biologists. Although I am not sure if other fish can sense that a tank mate has ich and in turn get stressed out by that making it possible for others to be suseptable. What other reason would you have to quarantine your fish? Isnt the medication for ICH safe for all fish? I never actually inquired about that part. Again I was told this and have no working knowledge of the truth to what I was told.

 

[perfectdark]

Just as an FYI. To my knowledge every tank has ich, what activates it is stress which lowers a fishes immune system and allows it to present itself. I was told this by a couple of guys in my LFS who are marine biologists. Although I am not sure if other fish can sense that a tank mate has ich and in turn get stressed out by that making it possible for others to be suseptable. What other reason would you have to quarantine your fish? Isnt the medication for ICH safe for all fish? I never actually inquired about that part. Again I was told this and have no working knowledge of the truth to what I was told.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by PerfectDark
Just as an FYI. To my knowledge every tank has ich, what activates it is stress which lowers a fishes immune system and allows it to present itself. I was told this by a couple of guys in my LFS who are marine biologists. Although I am not sure if other fish can sense that a tank mate has ich and in turn get stressed out by that making it possible for others to be suseptable. What other reason would you have to quarantine your fish? Isnt the medication for ICH safe for all fish? I never actually inquired about that part. Again I was told this and have no working knowledge of the truth to what I was told.
This is all false. Ich is a parasite that must be introduced into a system. It is NOT in every system. You quarantine fish to be sure they are free of parasites before they enter your display tank. There are only 2 things that kill ich. They are copper or hyposalinity treatment. Neither can be done in the presence of invertebrates since ich is an invert. If ich has been introduced to your system then ALL fish need to be removed and treated. They have all been exposed to the parasite. The display tank will need to be left fishless for 6 weeks. The ich in the display will not have a host and will therefore die.

 

[perfectdark]

Again I am not trying to tell anyone they are wrong but if you search the internet you will find tons of articles expaining that while not symptomatic, ich lives in all tanks in one of there various stages of life. Just because it doesnt show doesnt mean its not there and fish who are carriers of it wont show signs until the conditions common to outbreaks appear, eg, poor water quality, high stress etc. IMO There are enough articles written contradicting one side from the other to say that there needs to be conclusive evidence to prove either one before its just considered false.

 

[lil_dozer]

Ok, Then I have another question. If I had ich in that tank once upon whenever. I did fishless way over 6 weeks in my DT could there have still been ich in my DT before any fish were introduced? PerfectDark My LFS is actually a marine biologist store. The man that sells his fish and corals has been a marine biologist for the marine and science center here in Florida/ Jacksonville for over 17 years. He runs his own store and has for over 10 years. When I spoke to him, He told me the same thing that you have posted, along with the fact that all fish carry different types of parasites. Most of our supply of saltwater fish are wild caught. Each fish does not come with any identification of what area has which parasite. Sepulatian, I'm aware of the ich in my tank. I'm aware of the concern as well. I am however trying to decipher whether one can get ich and fight it off, if there was ich in my tank at one time in it's life can it still be in there, if perhaps adding rock corals and whatnot could have introduced itself into the tank once again.... and decided that the stressed fish was perfect to take over, if the fish even HAD ich in the first place, or even if an immune system could fight this ich on the regal and it be taken care of as is.
My second questioning in my post was, can ich show that many spots in a matter of perhaps 12 hours and then 3 spots disappear. I'm looking at him now and there is one above his right eye, one in mid body left side, one towards right side near tail, and one near underbelly. In my research it mainly speaks of tail, fins and gills. I see nothing in those areas. Again, neither of my other fish show sign of ich what so ever.
The Marine biologist said that a stressed new fish can show signs of ich and it either take over the fish or the immune system will fight the parasite off.
Even if I used a hospital tank, ich doesn't always show present in the time of 3 weeks. A cycle well known. Ich does decide whether it chooses to stay dormant or not on many hard surfaces.
I'm not trying to go against what many people have discovered nor am I trying to prove someone wrong. I'm trying to decide what would be the proper measure.
I have refurbished several rooms in my home. In doing so I have had to take the hospital tank down 2 weeks ago. The time after QT'n the Tang. After careful consideration I have set up the hospital tank this morning. I was really not ready for such breakout even though I should have. I don't have sponges to prepare a new cycling tank. I'm surely not going to just throw them right in. I'm prepared to swim through my tank and fish out these fish but I have no emergency way to do so.
Advice on such emergencies would be great. This was my reasoning for the whole questioning on the regal. My Marine biologist said if things get worse to fish him out and treat him. He says it may go away. He says not all fish are affected by the parasite because many have strong immune systems to fight the parasite off. Of course in this reasoning wouldn't there still be ich in my tank?
I'm not looking for miracles or quick fixes, I'm looking for fact and reasoning. I'm looking for less stressful measures for the group of the fish. I can only imagine the stress all fish will go though me tackling them in an environment they have now made home. I'm also looking for the best emergency setup needed to house these fish if at anytime they all show signs or if there seems to be no other reasoning. In any case I still need time to reset up the hospital tank.
My last question is this, will I be able to place the corals in the tank if and when I HAD to take this tank apart. There are already many in the tank as is. Shipment comes in on the 16th or 17th.
ok ok ok at the end of all this.... what should I do? What seems more logical?

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by PerfectDark
Again I am not trying to tell anyone they are wrong but if you search the internet you will find tons of articles expaining that while not symptomatic, ich lives in all tanks in one of there various stages of life. Just because it doesnt show doesnt mean its not there and fish who are carriers of it wont show signs until the conditions common to outbreaks appear, eg, poor water quality, high stress etc. IMO There are enough articles written contradicting one side from the other to say that there needs to be conclusive evidence to prove either one before its just considered false.
How about the conclusive evidence from many members of this board who do not have ich in their systems? I do not have ich in mine. My friend had his new fish get cut from his tang, never added a drop of medicine. Don't you think a gash in the side of a fish would qualify as "stress" not one spot of ich. You can find any evidence you would like for any argument you want to make on the internet. I am not trying to sound like a "know-it-all" but this site is about expeience, not tests done in a stressful lab. The results come out the same on here. This site has thousands of members. We post our successes as well as our failures for others to learn from. Ich is a controlable parasite. It is those that do not quarantine properly that get it in their display. Most people do not know how to or that they should quarantine not just fish, but rock, inverts, and anything with a hard surface. Ich drops off of fish to reproduce. Please take a look at Beth's Common Treatments FAQ at the top of the disease and treatment forum. She is another hobbiest of quite a few years. She has written extensive information on diseases and their treatments which she has shared with others with great success. She explains about ich's life cycle and how to prevent it from entering a closed system like our tanks.

 

[sepulatian]

LIL dozer, ich can come in on corals, rocks, fish, inverts, anything with a hard surface. As far as your LFS, it is close to impossible for them to NOT have ich in their system. They get these fish a few days after they are caught out of the sea. This is why it is every aquarists responsibility to quarantine their own fish. You can QT them longer than 3 weeks if you are nervous. I quarantined my last fish for well over a month and he never showed single spot or sign of illness.

 

[lil_dozer]

Thank you. Now the next step I'm having to take is an "emergency setup. It hasn't cycled back up yet. I don't want them in a new cycling tank. How do I go about such things?
You really wouldn't hear any arguments from me on where it may have come from. I had the QT, I have had to take it down, next step to get this tank ready for an emergency situation is beyond me. I haven't any sponges. So any advice would be wonderful.
Sepulatian In the aspects of where it may have come from you will here no arguments. Now If I'm to quarantine immediately what's next?

 

[perfectdark]

Actually if you check on this you will find it to be true. Ich can be brought in on corals and other things however if it does not find a fish to host on in a few days time it will indeed die. Just because your tank doesnt show signs does not mean it is ich free, it just means your fish are not suseptable to the later stages that attacks fish when their immune system gets compromsed. Ich can over come a fish inside of 24 hours if the fish is really stressed or water quality is poor in a combination of the 2 ICH can desimate a tank in a matter of 48 hours. The flip side is that yes a fish which has become victim to ICH can indeed fight it off if the proper conditions are there for it to recoop. Although IMO It can only help him by giving them medication to aid in its healing. I have really never dealt with a bad bout of ICH and the one time my tank had it I treated it with no quaratine. Everything is fine and my tank looks and tests healthy. I am in no way an authority or a biologist but like lil dozer I inquire about everything, and my LFS has marine biologist too that work for them, which i think is cool because they are waay more accurate in their explainations.
And yes a gash in a fish could def qualify as stress, but not all fish are the same and what might make one fish have an out break of ICH wont be what makes another. When I get a shot or have blood taken I dont mind I never stress about it. However some one else may act completly different to it nervous anxiety and stress. Its the same with fish what stresses one may not another. Its not what you do to the tank so much as its a combination of how suseptable to stress is that particular fish and what you did to make it stress. Like people they are all different. Although I think thats the only comparson to people you can make about fish.