Breeding Achilles in Hawaii

[szybowski]

I've been in the aquarium industry for some time now and find it surprizing that with all the massive power this industry has it has not brought it to bear on finding a way to breed
sustainably many of the most commonly desired fishes. In particular I'm thinking of the angels, tangs, and butterflies.
From time to time I hear rumors of professional breeding attemp from some of the larger importers in regards to angles, and that pairs are collected together in the wild for this purpose. But no data to be seen from it.
I would expect that in some cases that if they were having success they would wish to keep there data a proprietory secret, for the reason of profit. But we really don't have time for that since many species are getting harder to find in the wild and a large amount of laws are tightening around use at a record pace.
I live in Kona, Hawaii and Sandpoint, Idaho and plan to build breeding research facilities in both locations for fun and maybe some day profit can be had from successes if they are to be had.
I have allot of ideas of how to do this and I'm sure I will find many of them to have no merit over time but I'm tired of hearing it can't be done. Actually that's one of the reasons it's so interesting to me.
So if any one has any none rumor or good rumor data on breeding Tangs, Angels, or Butterflies speak up and lets see if we can shake some things loss. I'm starting with Achilles Tangs of which I've been watching in the wild in Hawaii for some time.
They seem to have a some what different way about them compared to other tangs in Hawaii. The full grown adults love to spend most of the day right next to the surface rocks of the reef where waves are always crashing and producing large amounts of bubbles.
I in the past when breeding rare african finches I would get the wild stock to breed in very large aviaries with a very similar food source as they once had in the wild. Then once past first generation if was easier to breed them in smaller areas and with easier to use food sources.
I propose to use that same basic approach in fish breeding.

 

[szybowski]

Being that Flames are small they seem to be an ovious choice to start with since you would hope they would be more comfortable in a smaller breeding tank.
I've been watching the Chinese ways of breeding many of the freshwater tetra species for several years and since they are egg scatterers like many marine fishes some of there egg saving methods may be of use.

 

[szybowski]

Achilles tang hang out

 

[szybowski]

What did you wake up to this morning, this is my wake up call
Care to go snorkeling with me for breakfast I'm sure the sharks won't mind.

 

[daniel411]

Just out of curiosity, how is Gerald Heslinga's Indo-Pacific Sea Farms facility? Is it pretty impressive or more or less a large fish store cultivating its own corals and fish?

 

[tizzo]

When I was in the military, I had gotten the hardship tour... Oahu. I came back little over 8 years ago, and boy do I miss it. Please don't post your wake-up calls anymore... They can send me into a tailspin desire to move back there. (I'm only kidding about not posting anymore), but seriously, you really don't know what you got 'til it's gone.

 

[birdy]

Sorry to go OT-but I also used to breed African finches (at the zoo I worked out), what types did you work with?

 

[fmarini]

Szybowski
great photos and a beautiful wakeup.
You mention a few things and allow me to clarify them. First off the industry is not big, and secondly it take money to make the fish world go 'round. The only way a commerical firm will spend any time, effort, and energy on a project is if they see a finanical gain. selling achille tangs is not a huge money maker- today.
W/ that said, their are a number of things that need to be overcome before you'll see widescale efforts in breeding ornmental marine fish. 1-the market has to be there, meaning you have to enure a financial gain, and while we (the hobbyists) think there is a markets, its not a big one.
Now the fish themsevles, marine fish pose a number of problems that have not been solved yet (even applying Fw fish breeding techniques won't cure them). Some marine fish fry are planktonic in size. so first foods are not known, discovered or understood. The reason flame angels have been recently bred w/ success is becuz research into the copepod larvae which the angels fry eats was underway. We don't know what the first food is for many marin fish. The reason clowns, dottyback, etc are being bred routinely is that we understand we can substitute rotifers and BSnauplii as first foods and it works (also these fish breed on th esubstrate). 2)-in small systems its not possible to get marine fish to bred. Think about it, tangs have huge ranges in the wild and need huge tanks, in our size tanks at home, you can't even get two tangs to peacefully co-exist, nevermind breed, so unless you have a huge facility w/ a tank dedicated to one or a few speieces the space issue is an expensive one.
so until these an many other questions get answered first it will be a wghile before we see captive bred tangs or others.
Now there are a number of facilites which are scineing the waters to capture planktonic or larval fish, as you know many fish have fry which are planktonic in size and are consumed as free floating plankton, so if you can capture these planktonic fry, allow them to settle out, and then feed appropiate foods, you might be able to increase the wildcaught yeild. These are called captive raised fish, and are becoming slightly more available, but these are still being wildcaught.
So these are just a few of my comments, there are a bunch more
frank

 

[szybowski]

The data on Flames sounds promising. It would be great if you could find any detailed data such as numbers produced. gestation time frames, tank sizing, numbers of pairs worked with, etc.
As for the birds I was more or less a kind of finch specialist and even got to be a finch judge once at my young age. That was quite a honor since most judges have to go through a formal apprenticeship. I learn most of what I know from the retired hobbiest and commercial breeders which I find to be the most fun way to gain knowledge. Any who I got to deal with a large number of common and rare species. I won't bore you with the common ones but as for the rare ones I had Green back Twinspots, Peters Twinspots, Dybowski's Twinspots, Melba's, Swee's, Black Bellied Fire finches, Purple Grenadier's, Violet Eared Waxbills, Crimson seed cracker's, and many others.
Sorry fish people:happyfish for all that GREEK
But since I'm having to learn all your abbreviations it's only fair

 

[szybowski]

African Swee Waxbill

 

[szybowski]

Now back to the fishies
I understand that a larger part of the wholesale price of a marine animal is for shipping and by the time we see a retail price many think wow they must be making a killing. But as many of us know a fish that was first bought for less then $2 from a collector can easily sell for $30 to $60 dollars at the retail end.
That said I can see why trying to raise a $10 or $20 fish in a multi thousand gallon breeding facility would not look profitable.
Now I'm not against making a reasonable income in this industry and that is of course a driving force in are hobby.
I have I think a unique view of what can happen and have seen it happen in the past. In the bird industry Congress shut down the import of all CITES listed species in the early 90's and all parrots are under CITES so people invested in as many breeding birds as could be had. Now as most people are aware of parrots generally have long life span even in a bad envirment.
But wild caught species of finches which were always cheap to buy and easier to kill by a amateur were largely ignored. One reason was the low wholesale price which the breeder knew wouldn't pay for the large amount of time, space and live food it takes to breed these birds.
Now do you see where I'm going with this. I bought at least four unrelated pairs of every species of finches that was not being raised in any numbers expecting the price and availabiliy to go through the roof. I was right birds once selling for $30 a pair now sell for over $400 if you can find them.

 

[szybowski]

Originally posted by Daniel411
Just out of curiosity, how is Gerald Heslinga's Indo-Pacific Sea Farms facility? Is it pretty impressive or more or less a large fish store cultivating its own corals and fish?

The Indo-Pacific Sea Farms facility is in my view forming the base of research needed to go on to aquaculturing marine fished that are not seemingly being breed now. With there plankton, snails, seaweed, worn, clams, and many other products you can now hope to get a marine fish in to breeding health.
Now inderstand this I don't expect to breed Achilles tangs in and home aquarium but in a multi-thousand gal. simulated reef enviroment several acres in size and over 6 fathoms deep. I would use solar powered wave machines and use natural sunlight for the reef. Multiple species could be raised on the same reef including corals, clams, and inverts. Now even if the fish didn't breed the corals as we all now will and with even a acre of reef a large amount of coral could be propagated for a sustainable income.
I'm working on a mechanical filtration design so as to not filter out the eggs in a way that would kill them but just collect them for use in a plankton tank.
Now as we all know most tangs and angels need to be alone in a home aquarium. But in the wild they are seen together many times in very large schools. I observe Achilles Tangs in average schools of 10 to 20 in areas right next to large rocks that come out of the water forcing the waves to crash on them. There size averages from 7' to maybe 9' in these areas. The larger seemingly dominate ones have a light blue area about a inch and a quarter in diameter under there gills. Those fish are incredable to see.
Frank I would love to hear more from you on this subject
Sincerely Szybowski the Wanderer
Not all who wander or wonder are lost