Breeding Bangaii Cardinals

cpbirds407

Member
Ok. I have a male with eggs inside his mouth. He has a boulge or pouchy mouth. I strongly believe that is a sign of eggs in his mouth. So I separated him into a breeding net that I hung on the side of the tank. I have set up an 8 gal bio cube to put the babies when they are hatched and released. What do I need to know about this topic. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks!
 

nick76

Active Member
Originally Posted by cpbirds407
Ok. I have a male with eggs inside his mouth. He has a boulge or pouchy mouth. I strongly believe that is a sign of eggs in his mouth. So I separated him into a breeding net that I hung on the side of the tank. I have set up an 8 gal bio cube to put the babies when they are hatched and released. What do I need to know about this topic. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks!
I would say your going to need a special tank with a sponge filter so they dont get sucked up, I dont think they fry can handle powerheads and the chance of survival is very small even when u do everything right. I think u also need to feed them "Rotifiers"? Which are very small and need to be harvested with a special system.
But bang guy can tell u everything u need to know.
 

cpbirds407

Member
I PM Bang Guy. Thanks guys! If anybody else has anything that would help me in this breeding project, please let me know.
 

cpbirds407

Member
WOW! I just experienced the weirdest thing ever!!! I had the male with the eggs/babies in his mouth in the net and all day I've seen the female watching the male thru the net. I decided to lower the net to see if she would go in the net and she swam ringht in the net!!!! It was like a love reunion!!!! Do they stay in pairs? Should I keep them together? Please if anyone knows... let me know.
Thanks!!!!
 

cpbirds407

Member
Ok. Here are the most recent pictures of the breeding pair.
If you look close enough you can see the male with a boulge mouth.
(sorry for the poor quality pics. My phone camera)


 

goingpoor

Member
I dont know anything about it i wish you all the luck and tryed to look some stuf up for you this is what i found..
*Link Removed*
Male holding eggs As I had initially described the male of the banggais supports the gestation of the babies for 20-25 days. It was reported to me that the babies reach a free swimming form around day 13-18, and the male retains these babies in his mouth for an additional week. During this period (day 18-25) the babies do not feed off the yolk sac, as I have witnessed babies which have been released earlier than day 18 (I have had 2 broods of babies released at day 12, and day 15, both of which had babies which contained yolk sacs, however only 2 fish [out of 28] at the 15 day period had a yolk sac. I donմ know what the babies are feeding on in the males mouth during the additional week, and it has been suggested that the babies are feeding on mucus or food remnants, similar to what has been observed in juvenile discus.
 

goingpoor

Member
Breeding setup In the original article I described the use of a breeders net set-up (a screened netting hang-on-the-side frame) as a breeding station. This method worked well until I decided to "scale-up my breeding.
After talking with Robert Goldstein he recommended using a 10 gallon aquarium as a holding pen, and using a breeding sponge filter. I setup up the sponge filters by establishing it in the "big aquarium for 2 weeks, (the day I discovered the male stopped eating), and then captured the male around day 18-20 and place him in the 10 gal tank with a plastic plant. I watched daily, and after he releases the babies, I quickly removed him, and kept the babies remaining in this tank. I was doing water changes with 2 gallons weekly. At the highest point of my breeding I had 5 -10gal aquarium bubbling away. I found this 10 gal set-up easy to use and allowed quick change outs of the water and sponge filters. I also found that a 10 gal tank was a good size for the babies, and the food. As many of you know it is important to keep a large number of food items in a small volume so to increase the frequency of your fish finding the food. A 10 gal tank allowed me to add baby brine shrimp at a much larger concentration without worry of the babies choking due to super high concentration of food I routinely added to the breeders nets. This switch to a 10 gal set-up was really the only major change from the original article.
My main tank is a different story. At the time of the original article I had recently converted from a reef style aquarium to a fish only. The tank bottom was bare, and a small pile of rubble (less than 10 lb.) was left in one corner. When I had only 1 pair of banggai in this tank, I could easily capture the fish, and it was easy to clean. However when I wanted to increase the number of breeding pairs of banggai, this tank was insufficient. So instead of buying a new tank I added tank dividers, actually I added 5 of them. In each section I had a small powerhead to ensure circulation, and I had cut out long thin slots (at the water level) on the top to ensure that surface water was moving, and no build up of stagnant water was present. In each divided section I placed a wild caught male and in 4 out of the 6 slots I had females, which I had selected by buying 5 banggais and allowing many of them to pair up, and the remaining females were selected using my "banggai selection" method. These divided sections had a few tall plastic plants in each, and were then home to each pair. All the fish got fed three to five times a week with Selacon enriched live brine and 3-4 times a week with ghost shrimp. I also fed frozen bloodworms, and attempted many times with flake foods, and beefheart. When I observed breeding activity (mating dance), I kept an eye on the males, and when the males refused food, I kept a log of events. Initially the females were kept in the presence of a " mated male until I captured the males to place in the breeding station (10 gal aquarium), however, by accident I placed a "paired female into another males section (a normally unpaired male), and within 2 hrs the males was dancing for her. They breed 18 days later. So after this experience, I rotated a females to different males and found that the females would sometimes breed again, often within 2 week of delivering eggs to the first male. There was a report in FAMA (Dec 1996), of another person who had 2 males and 1 female in his reef tank and during the time the first male was holding eggs the other male became "pregnant as well. At least suggesting that the females are not bonded to the males, and also implying that to increase the output of banggai babies the rate limiting factor was males, i.e. one needs few females to males. Using this method I was able to get 4 females to mate with 6 males and breed almost once every other month. A major drawback of this type of breeding tank (complete with dividers), is that each fish has very little space. This lack of space and cramped quarters may have contributed to the reduced output of babies as my breedings continued. (see TANK NOTE below). Please be aware that this situation of multiple breeding partners maybe a result of the captive environment. It is well known that cardinalfish live in pairs in the wild, and even when found in large aggregations in the wild, pair mates are often found. I would assume that this pairing is important to the behavior of these fish, however in captivity, there are many reports of hypersexual activities reported by many animal species. So this promiscuity maybe a result of this.
 

goingpoor

Member
Baby Banggais This is something of a mystery to me. Directly after release, the babies seemed very tolerant of each other and often ӭassed" around the plastic plants. They would all come out to eat at once and quickly dashed back to the protection of the plant. The mystery is that they would all do fine for the first week with no problems and like clockwork in the middle of the second week (day 10) I would loose 2 or 3 babies. As the weeks progressed the larger banggai babies would out compete their siblings, and fish would die due to starvation, this was a common problem which I would remedy by removing the larger babies. For the first 3 months the fishes body size remain between 1/3 and 3/4 of an inch. It would get slightly thicker in body, and would take on the adult coloration. During the next three month period, the babies would almost double in length each month, with the babies reaching 6-8 months being around 0.75-1.25 inches snout vent length (SVL). This is the most common size of fish available on the commercial market, and represents a juvenile animal which is not sexually mature. At this point all the babies can peacefully coexist, and often I see grouping in my aquariums. I cannot reliably --- these animals at this point, so to me a group represented fish which "got along (as compared to hierarchies, or harems). When the animals reached the one year point the animals would be about 1.0-1.5 inches SVL, and start to take on sexual characteristics, i.e., males having larger banner fins, squaring off of the jawline, and the problems in my holding tanks would begin. As these fish reached sexual maturity they would pair off in the holding tanks and really start problems. As mentioned earlier these fish become quite aggressive towards other banggai cardinals when paired. Now let me clarify, that this experience has been in my aquarium, the conditions and feeding from wild caught animals will be different, meaning that it is possible in the ocean, that these fish grow quicker, and reach sexual maturity earlier, and therefore using a "size to determine age maybe incorrect.
Feeding babies As reported in the original article I fed the baby banggai with brine shrimp nauplii (artemia). This is still one of the best, and easiest food source for baby cardinal fish. It is an absolute must to Selacon enrich the nauplii, and additionally I recommend feeding the nauplii with scraped algae (from the tank) and other vitamins/mineral or lipid complexes, such as Aquafarms Rotirich liquid food, and Vita-chem. I would feed the babies a minimum of 5 times a day, and would feed as much as would be eaten in a few minutes, and then a little added more to the breeding station. My brine shrimp hatcheries where nothing more than 1 gallon milk jugs with the tops cutoff, filled with 3/4gallon of used tank water. I added O.S.I. brine shrimp eggs and aerated heavily for 2-3 days. I had 6-8 milk jugs of baby brine shrimp bubbling away, and always kept extras on hand in case of emergency. I would try to stagger the hatching of the brine shrimp over a few day period, as each culture would supply about 2 to 3 days of brine shrimp nauplii to the banggais. For the past years I did not attempt any more rotifer culture as they became more time consuming, and would crash far more frequently than the brine shrimp. However it is an excellent food source, and one that I would recommend to any seasoned aquarist. I believe that better and different food sources are the key to increased banggai production, this is an area where more research is desperately needed.
Lastly, about longevity of these fish. I currently have the original male from the article still doing well, and still able to carry young (he bred last Nov). I would suspect that when I purchased him he was 8-10 months of age and therefore he would be 4.25-4.5 yrs old (he is about 3-3.5inches SVL). The females seem to be less hardy as most of them have only survived about 2 yrs, however I have never kept a female alone, and therefore this shortened life span maybe due to breeding.
[TANK NOTE: my breeding stations were 10 gal aquariums (and kept babies up until 3-6 months), my holding stations were 20 tall aquariums (up until 6-8 months), the original tank is a 65long Oceanic reef-ready with 5 dividers.]
 

cpbirds407

Member
ok, The male is slowly releasing the eggs on to the bottom of the breeding net! Will everything be ok> Will they still hatch? ....I hope they do. I'll keep you updated!
 

cpbirds407

Member
Originally Posted by cpbirds407
ok, The male is slowly releasing the eggs on to the bottom of the breeding net! Will everything be ok> Will they still hatch? ....I hope they do. I'll keep you updated!
My bad! They are babies!!!! Look at the pics! I know the pics are not really clear. Thats the best I can do with my phone! Sorry! I will keep posting baby pics!



 

cpbirds407

Member
Originally Posted by cpbirds407
My bad! They are babies!!!! Look at the pics! I know the pics are not really clear. Thats the best I can do with my phone! Sorry! I will keep posting baby pics!
They still have the egg yolk still attached! Today is their b-day!
 
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