Broomer5 and other refugium users

[mini-reefer]

Sorry to call you out Broomer5, I just remember seeing your DIY refugiums harvest, so here it goes.
My refugium was set up with the tank on 3/31/02. Its got about 40 lbs Southdown sand for the DSB. Water is fed through a valve, then a PVC tee. There are no more spray bars like the ones in the pics in my profile (it didnt work out as well as the tee fitting alone). Flow rate is slow, but I havent checked the exact GPH yet. Its got one mini-jet 404 for circulation. There is lots of coral rubble and some CC from another mature set-up at one end of it. The other end is pure fine Southdown sand. I recently replaced the 40 watt NO with a 55 watt 50/50 power compact. Thats exactly how it stands today. On to the question...
I can not keep calurpa alive and I can not see why this is! I have tried two different strains form the LFS. I just got some in on 6/20/02 from an ---- auction. There were three types included. Heres that link:
<a href="http://cgi.----.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2029404946" target="_blank">---- auction</a>
It has only taken 5 days and it appears all is lost. There is only one small piece of grape that looks decent. Im at a complete loss because things look so great. Ive even got pink coralline spots coming up all over the refugium since replacing the light. The only coral in the display tank that needs help are the Green Stars. They havent opened up over the last few days. <img src="graemlins//confused.gif" border="0" alt="[confused]" /> Im not sure why that is either.
Sorry for the windy post, just trying to be thorough.
[EDIT] I just checked the refugiums flow rate, its running about 40 GPH.

 

[broomer5]

Hi Mini-Reefer !
Well you're refugium set up sounds pretty good to me, although I am still quite new at this macro algae stuff myself, it seems like you've got everything you would need to grow caulerpa.
When I first set mine up, I let the refugium run for a couple weeks - hooked into the display and sump water - before adding any live rock or plants. Just sand and saltwater.
When I did add the macro algae/caulerpa - I bought 5 different varieties.
Some were free floating, some were attached to some small nuggets of live rock.
I lost most of the larger bulb grape caulerpa within the first week, and all of it was gone by week two. It turned a pale whitish/clear color and just sort of disintegrated upon removing it.
Was a mess - and I tried hard to net out the little bits that were floating around.
Then the feather type started looking pretty sad as well, and has not doen so hot either.
It's been a few months, and only 3 of the original 5 types have survived.
Why that is I'm not 100% sure.
I am guessing that these types that died off did not like either my water conditions, my lighting, or both.
The other 3 types are growing well.
I do know that macro algaes and all plants need certain things to thrive.
Light, water, certain nutrients and carbon dioxide gas in solution.
Photosynthesis at it's finest.
If a plant does not grow well - one or several of these conditions may be lacking.
We grow the caulerpa for nutrient export - but I suppose if your water quality is really super great - there may be a lack these required nutrients for the plants to utilize ( this is a good thing for the tank - but bad for growing algae ).
You want to grow caulerpa to help reduce phosphates/nitrates etc....
But you may already have such low levels that the alage just won't grow well.
Sort of a catch 22 if you know what I mean.
Also - the caulerpa that we buy is accustomed to growing under certain conditions, lighting and water quality or lack thereof.
Specific gravity, pH, alkalinity, dissolved gasses, etc ...
By transplanting this stuff to our tanks - sometimes I would imagine the conditions are so different that the stuff just dies.
Shipping the stuff may start the downfall of the algae too. I'm not sure if this stuff ships very well or not. I got mine from a source 45 minutes from here - and transferred home in a half filled bucket of lfs water.
Hard to say for sure .... but the lfs dude I bought the caulerpa made one recommendation that I thought was pretty good.
Buy as many different types that you can.
Place them all in the refugium.
See which varieties do the best for you.
Remove the stuff that dies.
Best you can do sometimes.
Maybe vary the lighting somewhat at first too.
I only lit the refugium for a few hours a day for the first month or so - eventually increasing the timer/lights on duration.
How old is the tank ?
What fish/inverts do you have ?
What are your test results for phosphates and nitrates ?
That's about all I can share with you now.
Hope it works out for you !

 

[cwfish]

Mini-Reefer, I have had a refugium setup for about 3 weeks and started with the feather calurpa as well as the grape and some halmeda (spelling). The feather has kinda stayed the same. Not grown not turned white and died. The grape has grown like CRAZY. Probably 5-7x the original size, and doesn't have any white areas yet. The halmeda has stayed about the same with a little growth and a little die off. I run the lighting 17 hours a day and have a 55 watt PC. In the refugium I have a starfish, fire shrimp, 4 snails, 2 hermit crabs. I would say try a few more types or get it from a different source. What are your nitrate levels? Since the start of the fuge. Mine have gone from 25ppm to 15ppm and still dropping so hopefully I will be under 10 soon. Good Luck to you.

 

[mini-reefer]

Thanks for the replies and info! Im leaning toward a few ideas Broomer5 had. The shipping was hard on the stuff and it only took two days from Orlando. The smell of it when it arrived was worse than the smell of curing live rock. The guy I bought it from was very helpful. He gave me a run down of his set-up and all the parameters were very similiar to mine. Thats even the reason I changed refugium lights.
The tank and refugium started the same day, on 3/31/02, and were running when I cured my live rock.
These test parameters are about a 8 days old, Im kinda slackin this week. Here they are:
Temp: 80.3 now
pH: 8.3 now
Salinity: 1.025 now
Alk: 3.6+ meq/l
Ammonia: 0
Trites: 0
Trates: <5
Calcium: 350-400
Phosphates: 0 mg/l 6/20/02
The current fish are: 1 Purple Tang, 1 Yellow Tang, 1 Flame Angel, 1 Bangaii Cardinal, 1 Royal Gramma, 2 Black Percula Clowns.
Corals are: 1 Green Bali Staghorn cutting, 1 Long Tenticle Plate, 1 Cabbage Leather, 1 Cabbage cutting, 1 Finger Leather, 1 unknown Leather, Sinularia?, a huge colony of Green Stars, a medium colony Zoanthids, a small colony of Brown Buttons, and lots of assorted Mushrooms.
Did I miss anything? We keep track up lots of stuff, huh? Anyways, another of Broomer5's ideas, The Nitrates. There the lowest Ive ever tested on one of my tanks and there isnt even Macro alive. I even quit running my skimmer except about an hour a day. Man that Berlin Classic turbo kicks a#@! Theres a plug for Red Sea!
Basic run down on equipment is 2-175 watt 10000K halides, 1-40 watt actinic, Red Sea Wavemaster Pro with 3 Maxi-Jet 1200's, Red Sea skimmer, Mag 9.5 return,blaa, blaa. I like lots of water movement! <img src="graemlins//freak.gif" border="0" alt="[freak]" />
I think Ive got carpal tunnel now...

 

[mini-reefer]

Oops, one more thing. There is 16 Blue Legs running around the refugium and thats it besides the pathetic looking calurpa.

 

[salvatore]

My findings:
Refugium set up with sand and a few pieces of live rock and left to run for a week or so.
Added a 60w grow light on 12/12 and some caulerpa prolifera. 50% died within a week.
Two weeks later added five/six pieces of grape caulerpa and changed lights to two 65w grow lights (still on 12/12). Most of the grape was in a 'group', bunched up in one area...the rest was spread out in the refugium. Within a week the bunched up grape was withered and white. The pieces that were spread out show lots of new sprouts and are as green as can be. The remaining 50% prolifera is growing like crazy and covers most of the refugium.
Theres a piece of grape in the display tank as well, put in there the same day as those in the refugium. The display grape is still green and even shows a few new sprouts, though not as many as in the refugium.
Summary:
Prolifera took off as soon as the lighting was increased.
Grape crashed when it was bunched up, but shows improvement when spread out (not next to any other grape sprouts).

 

[nm reef]

Not much to add to the responses already posted....except a couple of things that caught my eye:
1- you say the tank and refugium were set-up in March..........I wonder if the maturity level of your system has anything to do with your macro algae problems? My understanding is one of the reasons for a refugiumwith macros is to export excess nutrients....now that may be a problem if you have little in the way of excess nutrients. I added a refugium after more than 6 months from the completion of my cycle.....everything was stable and nitrates had gone to about 20ppm.
2- when I established macro algaes in my refugium I had the same problems initially....I started with several types and to date razor and feather have taken over....the others just could not compete! The things that worked for me were to attempt several types from assorted sources and I keep a relatively low flow rate...currently approximately 150 GPH...(close to 50 gal refugium volume on a 55 reef)....I also have maybe 40-60 lbs of ls ...20-40 lbs of sand from the bottom of curing tanks ...and maybe 20-30 lbs of rubble.
3- The last thing that jumped up at me was the crabs you say you have in your refugium.....they may be getting a little snack when you ain't there to supervise.......little devils like the stuff! I have 2 snails and 2 scarlets in my refugium ......but I'd be concerned if my macro started fading away .. my first thought would be are them critters munching my greens?
Last I'd look at your lighting as well...I run mine 24/7 and its been that way since day 1...plus I do have 3 mechanical filters that move the water around within the refugium and it seems the caulpras grow best in direct (mild) currents. Areas with little to no current seems a little scummy and the caulperas do not do as well in those areas.

 

[mini-reefer]

The blue legs are there for clean up. They seem to be sticking to the stuff thats dead or dying. Im gonna get rid of them soon. Ive come to the conclusion that they arent good for more than killing the rest of the clean up crew among other things.
I also forgot to mention my refugium lighting is on a reverse light cycle.
If this stuff completely dies off Im gonna give it a few months before I try again. Ill let it mature for awhile as NM reef suggested.
Its kinda depressing that there isnt enough nutrients to keep calurpa, but then again thats a good thing as well.
On a different note, I moved my Green Stars to the refugium as an experiment. They seem to open less under halide lighting, no matter how far from the light. So Im gonna see what they do tonight under power compacts.
Thanks all for your opinions and suggestions. This board has always and continues to be a great source of info.

 

[new]

i run an ecosystem60 hang on, small but effective, it was up and running for about 2 weeks before i got calupera, think its the feather. it looked bad when i got it but acclimated it and dropped it as my trates were clibming hourly it seemed. thought it all died but what a come back, ready to harvest small amount after only 2 weeks. it came with a rio600 which i belive has a 200gph flow. i have heard alot of people say it dies on them, including lfs, i would think it would be to much flow not giving enough time for the algea to get what it needs or just not enough of what it needs, my tank has been up since mid-march.

 

[bigeyedfish]

Not sure what to tell you about your situation. i currently have feather caulerpa and a mangrove in my fuge. i had pretty high nitrates which have drastically reduced since adding the stuff. i only have a plant grow light on 24/7. i need to do a harvest this weekend. i still have a small amount left in my QT that i temporarily stored it in until i was ready. with no lights on it and stagnant water, the stuff has continued to grow. like i said this stuff is really wierd. like everything in this hobby, some things work for some and dont work for others.

 

[anthony812]

i dont want to sound like a smart @$$ but in my opinion i dont think a refugium is nessarry in a small tank it would be a good addition in a large thank though. Also all you need is a deep sand bed and live rock in your sump it does the job and trust me a sand bed will bring nitrates skyrocketing down. I added a sand bed a while back to my main tank phew from 25 nitrates down to undetectable

 

[edsiajb]

I have had good success with the grape type caulerpa but only after I went 24/7 with the lighting. When I was doing the reverse photoperiod, I almost lost the caulerpa several times. The light is a Lights of America 65w CF from WalMart. I would also mention that my caulerpa seems to like the iron and strontium supplements and possibly the iodine. It is growing very well and recently some type of red leafy looking caulerpa has appeared in the refugium and is doing well. Good Luck!

 

[edsiajb]

One more thing: My corals looked good when I was doing the reverse photoperiod with the refugium but now with the 24/7 lighting they are unbelievable! I don't know if this is related only to the change in refugium lighting or some other factor but I really wonder...

 

[me-n-my-fish]

I have a 20 gal fuge on my 55 tank. I set it up with a dsb, and let it run with just a couple of small pieces of LR for about a month. I got a lb of grape calurpa, and for about the first week, it did not do anything, but now, it is doing great. It has been a total of 2 months with my fuge and nothing but happy. Thanks to all the people on the board that convinced me to do so. I did here about cycling the lights because of a ph swing or some such, but I leave mine on 24/7, and it is just a NO light that I had left over from the FW days.
My advice is to try one thing, if it does not work, try something else. But don't give up!!!!

 

[mini-reefer]

Since the post was brought back to the top I thought Id give an update for those interested.
It seems I have two of the red calurpa leaves still holding on. All the die off turned white and eventually disappeared. The feather is completely gone. Lasty is the grape, its got one strand with green bubbles still attached. Ive got my fingers crossed, and everything else I have, in hopes these two will pull through.
My Green Stars have not opened since I originally posted this topic. I seperated the original colony from the base rock they grew on to today and put them in a different tank. Ive tried different lighting cycles and distance from the lights and nothing seems to be working. Its really wierd because Ive had them some time now and they got so big my kids refered to them as the "grass" in the aquarium. Id really hate to lose them because the colony grew over a flat rock measuring 8"x9". They were huge! Ive even looked for unwanted hitchers eating at them or anything else out of the ordinary. The base is still holding its purple color, but not one polyp will extend out of the base. Im clueless at this point.
Thanks for all the input. Thats one of the great things about this board. You get input from a lot of different people and theyre tried and true methods. It gives other people a chance to try different things to see if they work. Thanks Saltwaterfish.com!

 

[jonthefb]

The key to using a refugium with caulerpa is to keep the light on all the time, 24/7. what this does is that it prevents the caulerpa from going through sexual reproduction. this is why you found some parts of your caulerpa, "whitish, almost clear and falling apart'. This is a sign that it has gone through sexual reproduction. By leavign your grow light on all the time, you basically keep the algae from reproducing sexually and it only grow asexually. Plants go through the initial processes of producing sperm and eggs in the dark, and if you have your lights on all the time this will not occur and you wont find the dead whitish pieces of caulerpa in your refugium. This also prevents gametes of the caulerpa finding a way into your main tank and creating obnoxious growths in your display. I have had a refugium on my 135 as the only means of filtration working this way since about August now and have had no problems with the caulerpa dyig out and turning white!
good luck
jon

 

[sgt__york]

refugiums.. i can't wait.. heck, i'm still in day 11 or so of my intital tank cycle.. when will i ever catchup?? LOL exciting to hear the sucess stories AND even the failed attempts - because i find i LEARN off of them both Thanks everyone for sharing ur experiences.
Listening to everyone, and gleaming from other sources... i'm curious... everyone says the IMPORTANCE of changing ur tank lights every 6mo's or so.. is b/c the corals need the intensity and spectrum. AND that once the lights get "OLD" they begin to increase algae growth - hair algae, etc..
SO, i'm just wondering.. why is good 'quality' lighting so necessary on the refugium? Is it possible the low spectrum of old lights (or whatever type of lighting that does the same) might do better??
In addition.. if we are trying to grow algae here, which need the nitrates to grow, wouldn't we want to REDUCE a live sand bed so they are not fighting each other for the nutrients?
Further, would it be a good idea, to have a fish or 2 in the refugium for a slight increase in bio load in the slower flow rated environment? Would this help perhaps, keep nitrate levels increasing here w/o contaminating the rest of the tank? Perhaps your favorite fish u enjoy overfeeding a tad??
And one last idea - instead of just a "slow rate" ghp flow - what about a periodic ISOLATION period??? If you have 1-2 pices of live rock for ammonia/nitrate filtration - and a fish or 2 - (w/NO sand bed for nitrification) what if this refugium was periodically SHUT OFF from the tank for the purpose of increasing nitrate levels - to grow the macro-algae - and then periodically the flow turned back on - almost like a water change. I'm just brain storming.. but do any of these ideas seem as if they would help the environment? Just a hypothesis.

 

[me-n-my-fish]

It might be worth a shot on your ideas. I myself could not do it because my skimmer and such are housed the the same sump. But the dsb and things that you said makes ya kinda go "huuummmm" Something to think about anyway. <img src="graemlins//mischievous.gif" border="0" alt="[Mischievous]" />

 

[broomer5]

sgt__york
Interesting idea, but one that does not appeal to me personally.
I plan to do nothing in my refugium that would ever increase nitrate levels.
The reason I've got the refugium planted with macro algae and a DSB is to reduce the nitrate and phosphate levels.
Isolating the refugium with attempts to increase nitrates - with hopes that the algae will consume this nutrient - then allowing this water to re-enter my display system would be risky and would demand a lot more water testing for me to mess with.
My goal is to reduce nitrates for my display tank.
If the caulerpa is not doing well due to low nitrates - cool by me.
If on the other hand - I was wanting to encourage the growth of algae/caulerpa to sell it - then your idea seems fine.
But I set up a separate system to grow the stuff in - not my display tank water system.
Keep brainstorming my friend

 

[sgt__york]

Broomer,
I can understand that.. I guess it's just finding a balance, in what ur tank load provides as nitrate that keeps ur algae at a given volume.
as you said just brainstorm'n
However, what about the LIGHTING thoughts, reducing/eliminating the competitive DSB, and perhaps a fish or 2 in the refugium (since the water turnover is much lower) to help the alge out (w/o the isolation idea)
Your thoughts?