building 1st sump/refugium (pics)

[draginit]

-i am completly new to the hobby, still learning everything. always wanted a SW tank and about a month ago a friend of mine was forfieting his 90Gal tank with a bunch of hang on stuff that i cant even identify! after doing lots of research i know i need a sump. i came across 4 sheets of acrylic for free and have began to construct my sump/refugium.
-im not new to building with acrylics and other materials, but what i am new to is all the equipment involved(skimmers,pumps,filters,etc.). i was hoping to get advise as i go on this build as to spacing out the 3 sections of the sump.
-i do know im setting my baffles about 1" apart. i guess first i'll show my design and then i'll ask questions..

.....its 15" wide
with my friend moved, and the LFS being useless to me, im kinda on my own here. ive already made my cuts....(pic)

and just need to router the top hole and some teeth in the bubble tower and refugium..
-1st question. i originally cut the sump to almost fill the entire base(see pic) but now ive been seeing a lot that only take up about 3/4 of the base leaving room for other things.
-is it recommended i do the same
-its not too late for me to cut it down.(weld-on is still in the mail.)

it is about this distance from each side at the moment..
2nd question.. how does one determine the right size sump/refugium for their tank size. from what ive read the refugium size doesnt matter and the deeper the better. but what about the overall size and gallons?
-i guess i'll just ask this for now and any suggestion as i go will be greatly appreciated! one last thing.. im not currently running anything in the tank. im leaving it dry until i understand more and can atleast learn the equipment/plumbing/etc before adding any water. thanks.

 

[chuckcac]

1st suggestion.
i would add a bubble trap between the refugium & the return pump area - watter falling into the return from that height will be noisy & create alot of bubbles...
2nd...
if you dont know how big your return pump is - how did you determine the size of the return section?

 

[turningtim]

A couple things, I didn't see if have already decided on a skimmer? You will need to know what the skimmer footprint is so you leave enough but not to much room in the skimmer chamber. You also should design and figure out how much flow you are looking for in the display tank. This will determine the Over flow size (is it a reef ready tank or hob overflow) and return pump size.
I would also leave at least 1.5" in between the baffles. If the baffles are to close you will just drag the micro bubbles through the trap.
It looks to me like there isn't enough room for the skimmer and to much for the return pump. Funny bit I'm working on a sump pretty much the exact size for my 80 gal. I will take the dims and post back.
HTH
Tim

 

[draginit]

chuck, thanks i like your first suggestion, and since i have plenty of acrylic to spare im going to make some cuts. on the 2nd suggestion, thats just it, i havnt determined any sizes yet, i was hoping for some guidance on what to get and what distances to set between each section.
tim, i havnt decided on a skimmer, any suggestion for a 90 gal? i do have one that came with the tank but it was a side mount, but it looks toasted and small compared to ones ive seen in other sumps.
-reef ready has bulkheads and the other not, is this correct??
-i'll be eager to see your design, i may just follow your lead.
-i'll have to read up on flow in display tank, to better understand but im sure i can find it all here.

 

[draginit]

ok, i calculated my total volume of the whole sump tank to be 41 gallons minus the displacement from the baffles and other walls.
-should a sump/refuge tank be 20-30% of the display tank or just the refuge be that? im guessing the whole tank cuz the refuge would be more than half the sump length to be even 20% of my display tank.
-i figure i was going to get the refuge and skimmer measurements first to determine the space left for the return. until today i didnt think the return section size wasnt important. any advise?

 

[draginit]

after lots of reading its sounds like the aquaC EV protein skimmer is a good choice. it has a small footprint which will leave more room for my return and maximize my refuge. my baffles are 9¾" tall. they were the left over cuts from the side walls, so i may have to raise the skimmer about 1" to stay within specs of the skimmer.
-what amount of room is too much room for the skimmer compartment? if the footprint is 4¾" x 8½" what is the recommended volume around it?
-as for the return, would a mag 9 pump be efficient and does the return area really matter as long as the pump stays submerged??

 

[buckster71]

You probably want your return area large enough to handle syphon flow from the tank in case of a power outage or such when the pump shuts off.

 

[turningtim]

The aqua-c is a good choice and also can be run out of sump inline. I have a 180 and plan to do just that on my 120. But you have to remember that you also will have to add a pump in the chamber with the skimmer so the foot print is larger when in use.
Buck has a good point. Did you calculate how much backwash room you need in the sump when you lose power? Is this a reef ready tank or hang on back (HOB) overflow (OF)? What is the OF rated for (how much can it drain)? On my 120 build thread on the second page I go through the calcs.
I'll put up the link.https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/284317/diy-120-reef-build
My sump Dims are (ID) 12 x 15.5 skimmer, 20 x 15.5 x 13 fuge, 8 x 15.5 return, Baffles are 2" apart and 9" tall. Return pump will be a Dolphin 900 but I set up the OF for 1200 gph so I can up grade.......
HTH
Tim

 

[draginit]

well i was looking over my DT today and found a crumpled up sticker at the bottom that says tempered glass do not drill...so much for any bulkheads. but thats ok i guess cuz im going to follow chucks "no drill" plumbing design.
-well back to reading and calculating, the backwash/losing power bit got me a little worried but my dimensions come to about 41 gallons total. so i have quite a bit to play with and hopefully be alright with whatever i come up with.
-thanks for the link, i only had a chance to browse if briefly but i can see it will be useful!!

 

[turningtim]

Look through the whole thing. I would bet you could go through the back like I did for your OF and returns.
Let me know if you need anything
Tim

 

[draginit]

Originally Posted by TurningTim
Heres how I calculate backwash area. This for the 80 DT with a DIY 39 gallon sump.
80 gallon = 48" x 18"x 22" Sump 39 gallons= 45" x 15.5" x 13"
I will lose 1.5" out of the DT in power out.
So, 48" x 18" x 1.5" = 1296" cubed divide by 231 (" cubed in a gallon) = 5.611 gallons. Call it 6
Now how many inches do I need in the sump for the backwash from the DT?
45" x 15.5" x Y = 6 gallons
697.5Y = 6 x 231
697.5Y = 1386" cubed
Y = 1386"/697.5"
Y = 1.987" out of the height of the sump
Check -> 45" x 15.5" x 2" = 1395/231 -> 6.039 gallons
hey Tim, first i gotta say this is helping me tremendously!! after looking at your measurements for the DT. i had to re-look at mine. my friend told me it was a 90gal but now i know its only an 80gal due to having the exact same measurements as you. which in a way is good cuz my math is really bad!
-i was just trying to figure how to come up with 1.5" loss for power outage? will mine be the same? either way i think i'll be alright as my sump total is bout 40gal too. my sump dims are L44" x W15" x H16" measured to the inside wall. my high baffle is going to be at 12¼" which leaves 3¼" from the top. i'll be posting a drawing soon.
-anyway i got the weld-on 4 & 16 in the mail today

and ive almost got everything measured out according to the products chosen specs and will post as soon as i have a presentable drawing. im hoping to get some feedback for any changes anyones sees wrong or deficient before i actually begin sealing it up!.. thanks

 

[brandan]

Looks like you have done your homework. That is priceless. It would be a shame to do all that work and waste the free materials bc something wasn't correct. Looks great.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Just a note here. Backwash is determined by the expected amount of water which will drain down during a power outage. I personally like to leave enough room in the sump/fuge for 2 in of backwash. I dont like pushing that too much. My 125 backwashes about 1.5 in but still.

The amount of space required in the sump/ fuge to handle this can be calculated to allow the wash to remain in the total volume of the sump. In other words, your baffles allow some room above them for back wash, as well as the other chambers that are running below the top of the sump/fuge. Figure out what volume they can hold and then you can determine how much volume is left over. If you want to get max water volume from your system.
Have you thought of an ATO? It'll be of great help to you. Look here...
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=257510
Cheap and easy.

Also a float VALVE is a cheap and easy solution.
I would make the refugium portion as large as you can and maybe crowd the other sections if it were me.
The only thing I dont like about the flow to center design is micro bubbles in the refugium, if your cheato (if thats what your planning on) doesnt tumble well, then you will float the cheato up. Even a filter sock wont completly eliminate them. But it's a good design.
Dont forget to think about heaters and where they will go. Submerged, you can lay then horizontal. But vertical, you'll need to have at least enough room for the minumum water level.
You can probably drill that tank in the back, I would if I were you, You'll be much happier. I didnt either of my 2 and wish I did. The weir dam in Tims thread is like super sweet!

The bottom is probably all thats tempered. What brand is it? If it's an AGA, then you can drill the back. Dont know about the others.

 

[turningtim]

Hey Doc! Well said!
Drag I actually made a math error in my design. Usually with a over the top return (OTT) and HOB OF (no drilling). The issues is that the return pipes will siphon back in to the sump. Easy to fix with a siphon break hole right below the water line and with the addition of the excess water from the OF draining and pipes I like doc always give wiggle room. Now with that said you can always add water to get max water level but you can't cut down the baffles once their in.
To my problem, since I have drilled the back of the tank there is no siphon to break and I calc'd my loss from the top of the return bulkhead (siphon break)! WRONG! It will gravity fed all the water down to the bottom of the BH so my calc's were off. So I had to cut down the baffles some more. I think they are about 9.5" now.
Did you calc the backwash area in the sump? Remember that you want the fuge as high as possible (I think I set mine 2" down from the top) and the rest will have to account for backwash.
HTH
Tim

 

[draginit]

you guys rock! all the advise im recieving is really helping. it is a lot to take in but i think im grasping everything pretty quickly. ive been trying to post a pic of my drawing here at work but its not gonna happen. but now that ive read the recent posts, im going to change a couple measurements anyways. im making a new cut for the fuge to be MAX height, but as it sits right now in the drawing, the fuge. is exactly 20% of the DT. but how i understand it more wouldnt hurt.
-well rather then trying to type everything i'll just post it up when i get home in a few hours.
-doc, the ato is awsome. definitly see the benifits of it and will look more into as i get further along!
-im attempting to measure the volume of the backwash in sump now.....ugh math

 

[turningtim]

Post your calc's I check them for you!

 

[draginit]

ok, here goes. (pic) i wouldve liked to use some program and clean it up, but i only have photoshop. oh well

....all walls are ½" thick and its 15" wide
-i calc the return to be 6 gallons to the lowest baffle. not sure what pump to buy yet or how low the water level stays during operation.
-i raised the fuge wall which increased volume so now i estimated about 22% of the DT.
- i took the advise and spaced the baffles 1½" apart and im looking to still put some sortof bublle trap or noise reducer between the fuge and return for the distance( i could use some ideas for that one!)
-would it be wise to put a bubble tower for the inlet to the skimmer section?
-please! tear it up and feel free to tell me what im missing or what i need to improve or anything wrong with it!! thanks i'll try to post in a math equation too if will help.

 

[draginit]

oh yea, forgot to mention, i think your right doc. i looked at my tank again and i couldnt find a brand but it did appear that that sticker was meant only for the bottom piece. im gonna start pricing around to glass cutters as i dont think im brave enough to tackle that one if i choose that route! lol

 

[ameno]

that's the same design I used on my new sump, the only thing is after the fuge I put in a short baffle, that way it will catch the bubbles from the water fall before it goes into the sump

 

[turningtim]

Drag if you're going to drill don't build the sump or calc for the returns. My returns are 2.5" below the level of the OF (waterline). So I will drain all that water into the sump. Lucky I caught my mistake or I would have had a flood.