Calcium low

[bcarp]

My calcium is low at 300. I went to LFS and told him I wanted to buy some calcium. He told me to wait and see if the levels come up on there own. He said you can lock up your tank by putting to much calcium in. My tank is two months old. Is he right? Should I wait and see if they will raise on there own. Will my plate coral be alright till then? I have been adding a supplement with calcium in it once a week and feeding it Silversides,(what ever the name of it) every 3 days. Also liquid plankyton. Or should I just add calcium until it is at 450?

 

[broomer5]

Well .....
Most people would say that you shouldn't add corals to a two month old tank, but I've done so myself before and all worked out fine.
The idea of letting a tank mature somewhat is often mentioned for just the reasons you have asked.
Letting the tank simmer for a few months gives it a chance to become somewhat more stable, and even more important, it gives the tank owner some time to read up on how to adjust the various water quality levels in their tank.
I don't doubt that water parameters can change on their own, without adding any supplements, and do so all the time.
The pH, alkalinity and calcium levels in the tank can and will change over time - it's natural for them to do so.
I've seen alkalinity drop as it will, and this can cause a slight increase in calcium levels, but not enough to raise it to where you want it.
I'm not sure what your lfs owner means when he said adding too much calcium to a tank will "lock it up" ?
Overdosing any additive can cause huge problems, calcium being one for sure - but I don't know what lock it up is referring to.
Whenever we want to adjust calcium in our tanks - we should be monitoring the pH and alkalinity as well.
Adding just calcium, or adding just alkalinity/buffers, is not a wise thing to do.
Normally - as you try to raise the calcium - you alk will drop.
Normaly as you try to raise the alk - the calcium may drop.
You gotta watch both levels - and increase them together over an extended period of time.
Once you get these levels where you want - you switch over to a maintenance dosing level of supplements - or start dripping kalkwasser.
In normally mixed synthetic saltwater, having a calcium level of 300 ppm - even if you wait it out - the natural processes that go on in our tanks will not allow the calcium to elevate to 400-450 ppm.
Personally, I think that unless you have a reef tank that is heavily stocked with hard corals - that keeping your calcium at 450ppm is not always required.
380 to 420ppm seems more reasonable a target in many cases, and will not mess with your alkalinity near as bad.

 

[bcarp]

Broomer5,
So what do you recommend would be the best product for me to use? Should I wait or go ahead and add supplements? You are a shark so I will take your word! My long Tenicle plate coral is doing awesome. It really fills out during the day. I keep him up high and blocked in so he doesn't move. I need stronger lights, that is why I keep him high. I just want to make sure everything is perfect for him. To cool looking to have it die!!!

 

[broomer5]

BCarp,
It's always best in my opinion to get various answers to your questions from more than just one source.
That's what's so cool about this bulletin board.
Weigh out the advice, suggestions or recommendations, study up and read, then make the final decision yourself.
That's what you're doing .... so I will offer a suggestion for you to consider.
As many here have mentioned, about the easiest/safest way to begin adjusting your calcium and alkalinity levels is by using one of the 2-part balanced calcium/akalinity products like Kent Marine's Tech CB Kent Tech CB or ESV's B-Ionic ESV B-Ionic
Both of these products are balanced - where you dose one part of bottle A, then the next day dose an equal amount of bottle B.
This of course is after you've established a baseline or starting point of the condition of your tankwater.
The dosage amounts are described on the instructions/bottle.
Keep monitoring ( and logging down ) the pH, alkalinity and calcium test results as you dose - and you'll soon see the changes you're looking for.
Hopefully you'll also begin to see the relationship between these 3 parameters. I did once I started writing down in a notebook the date/time, test results and dosage amounts of an additive .
It's about the easiest way to do it - and not have to use other products.
There are other ways - SeaChem makes some excellent marine additives/supplements as well.
I'd get several opinions and read up on all you can find on the internet and this site - before making your final decision.
In other words - just because one person says something - shark or not - it's best not to put too much trust in that one person's answer. There are a LOT of experienced saltwater hobbyists on this site, and getting several opinions and advise is normally best.
There's always more than one way to do something - with equal if not better results.
Ya know

 

[nm reef]

I couldn't agree more with the info provided by broomer.....he has you on the right path. Contrary to advise from your LFs I would suggest you adopt some type of system to establish as well as maintain desired levels of calcium & alkalinity. I'd have no clue what he means by "locking up your system".....
The system I use is a combination of seachem reef builder & advantage to build levels and kalkwasser to maintain them.....but as broomer indicated there are numerous ways to go about establishing levels for your system...the key is to develope a system...establish desired levels...and maintain them long term. I'd bet that each of the members here with established/mature systems go about it in slightly different ways...but each has success at basically the same objective.

 

[bcarp]

Thanks for the info guys. I will definitely keep all that in mind!!!

 

[new]

currently i am using the b-ionic system to raise my calcium. it is holding steady at 380ppm and am going to start 3 times a week dosing i think, until i read that 380-420 was a more realistic target and this tank will probably not have any serious corals in it anyway. i do have a question though, from other water chemistry applications i learned that alk and ph were very closely related to the point that changes in the alk would be seen in the ph, haveing that mind set i have not been checking the alk just keeping a close eye on the ph, am i going to really screw something up?

 

[sgt__york]

As said earlier, there is a strong link between alk, ph and calcium.
Does anyone have any good URL's that explain this relationship well for curious minds that wanna know?
i'm in the same boat as the thread creator here - calc levels sub 350. I just started yesterday adding the Seachem calcium additive to get my calcium up. My ph has maintained 8.2-8.24 - being buffered by my substrate (argonite shells) - I havn't added any buffer to date. I have no idea what my alk is tho.
As a side note - how will these levels affect a green star polyp or yellow polyp? I know they prefer moderate current & strong lighting (have both) - what else do these fella's require to flourish?
PS: Back to calcium - do i understand you guyz to say - dosing calcium is good for rasing levels - BUT once u raise them to a point - it begins to affect other element levels (alk, ph)? So the key is dosing to a given level and then using a DRIP method (INSTEAD of dosing) to MAINTAIN that?

 

[broomer5]

hi guys/gals
Changes in the pH ( as in a drop in pH ) is a pretty good indicator that there is an insufficient alkalinity level in the tankwater.
pH is just a number that relates to the amount of H+ hydrogen ions in the water. It's partner is the OH- hydroxyl ion.
When they meet you have H+ plus OH- , they get together and form HOH ( otherwise known as H2O water )
At a pH of 7.0 the number or amount of both of these ions are relatively equal. The water is considered to have a neutral pH.
At pH levels above 7.0, you have more OH- (base) and less H+
At pH levels below 7.0 you have more H+ (acid) and less OH-
In a saltwater aquarium - as acids are produced or added to the tank - naturally the pH will begin to drop.
In addition to the OH- ions, there are carbonates, bicarbonates and other base salts in the water. These compounds are known for neutralizing the acids as well, but go through a little bit different chemical reaction.
The amount or level of these carbonates is called the alkalinity, or sometimes referred to as the buffer capacity.
If the alkalinity is too low - the acids build up and are not neutralized. Acids contain H+
So there is a build up of H+ ions, and again the pH will begin to drop.
Think of it like playing a table board game with another player.
The other player is called acid guy.
Your game name is acid guy neutralizer.
The object of the game is to not let acid guy win by matching every coin he tosses into the pot on the table.
Acid guy has acid coins.
You have acid neutralzing coins - pennies.
You have a stack of pennies in front of you. Each penny can neutrlize one of his acid coins. He tosses an acid coin into the pot ( tankwater ) Each time you toss a penny into the same pot - you neutralize one of his acids. If you run out of pennies - you're done - and can't neutrlize anymore of his acids. The pH then will begin to drop. Acids make the pH drop.
Acid guy begins to win.
Think of the alkalinity as your wallet. If it looks like acid guy is going to win, and your stack of pennies starts getting too low in front of you - you can reach into your alkalinity wallet and cash in a dollar bill. Now you have more pennies in front of you to keep playing the acid neutralizing game with ole acid dude.
Your wallet is "buffering" the game table pot ( tankwater ), by allowing you to have more pennies ( acid neutralizers ) to keep playing against the acid guy.
Your pennies neutralize the acids. Your dollar bills "buffer" your ability to keep neutralzing the acids. If you begin to run out of dollar bills - your alkalinity is low. You must then add buffers ( more dollar bills ) back into the wallet ( tankwater ) to keep the pH from dropping and keep playing.
You get more dollar bills from the bank ( marine buffer products and alkalinity builders ).
If you don't go to the bank to get more alkalinity dollars, and you run low on bills again ( carbonates, buffers ) then the acid guy starts to win again, and the pH will again begin to drop.
Man - I'm not sure if that makes any sense at all now that I re-read it ...... but I'll let it ride.
Sorry for such a long screwy reply

 

[new]

it makes sense broomer thanks, i think let you know when get rid of the headache. j/k

 

[sgt__york]

BROOMER,
THUS.. a maintained 8.0++ of ph indicates not ONLY your PH is fine (acides are low or countered) that not ONLY is buffering not needed (which directly affects PH by introducing more Hydrogen ions to counter the growing acidity) BUT LOGICALLY your ALK must be fine as well ELSE the increased acidity DUE to low Alk would be bringing ur PH down - am i understanding this correctly?
If so, then there is no 'real' need to continually test for ALK "unless" PH is a problem and you cannot get it up sufficiently with simple buffering (due to possibly an overload of acidity - due to Alk levels?)
Am i on the right path at all here?
IF SO...
then good ph means Alk is fine.. THEN.. where does CALCIUM come into this equasion? OR does it become a simple additive independent of the other 2?
Also, if ur ALK is too low (thus indicating too much acidity in the water that brings down the Ph and overpowers the buffering ability) What is done to correct ALK levels BESIDES buffering? Seems if simple Buffering is the key - then maintaining PH thru buffering is the ONLY real thing to watch - as alk becomes an indirect by-product not to be directly monitored or adjusted.
I'm may ahve a little of this mixed up - lemme know if i'm on the right track here or not.

 

[jeffrey-chiang]

in my experience :
I will compare with the KH / Ca / PH , then try to find the problem then solve it.
If the PH/KH too low. I will use the Buffer . After that then solve the Ca problem.
If the Ca too low, and the PH/KH normal, I will try to figure out if there r no enough Mg, add Mg/ and Ca , If there r enough Mg, add the Ca...no matter CaCl2 , CaOH2,...

 

[broomer5]

sgt__york
The alkalinity ( carbonates ) should be tested and monitored regularly as well as the pH and calcium levels.
As mentioned, the pH is just a measurement of how acidic or basic the tankwater is at the time the test was done.
pH can and will fluctuate up and down in response to another player in this chemical balancing act, even though your alkalinity is fine.
That player is CO2 carbon dioxide gas.
The amount of CO2 gas in the tank depends on the number of fish in your tank, the amount of photosynthesizing algae/plants in the tank, the lighting duration over the tank, the amount of water circulation in the tank, the degree of gas exchange in the tank and to some degree the actual amount of CO2 in the room.
Just relying on a pH measurement, and trying to infer what the alkalinity is from that pH measurement - is impossible.
All the pH measurement will tell you is the pH.
Logic may say that if the pH is good ( 8.3 ) then the alkalinity must be good too. But this is not correct logic.
pH and alkalinity are related, and the alkalinity "helps" maintain the pH by neutralizing some acids - but they are two separate measurements, and should be looked at both together and individually. You gotta look in the wallet sometimes to see if you need to run to the ATM for some more dollars.
Calcium level on the other hand - is also affected by both the pH and the alkalinity, and should be tested for likewise.
Magnesium as Jeffrey-Chiang mentioned is yet another player in this chemical balancing act. If you're not having any problems maintaining your pH, alkalinity and calcium levels - magnesium in normally fine. If you have tried everything imaginable, and are still having problems - then a magnesium test kit may be wise to start using. I don't use a magnesium test kit. Regular water changes with Instant Ocean, along with my calcium/alk supplements seem to keep me within the targets I like to maintain.
Most everything we add to the tank will cause a chemical reaction in the saltwater depending on the saltwater's current chemical make-up.
In a tank with a lot of hard corals - reefkeepers will add some form of calcium to the tank to encourage hard coral growth and coralline algae. By doing so - this can cause a drop in alkalinity.
So some of us add buffers to keep the alkalinity up.
Others will drip kalkwasser (CaOH) to maintain the calcium levels, and the OH hydroxide will offset or neutralize much of the acids without having to tap into the alkalinity reserve.
By keeping the alkalinity up, we supply the tankwater with the ability to offset large swings in pH.
Small changes in PH are going to happen. But large swings is what we are trying to prevent.
By keeping the pH around 8.3, we insure that many of the chemical reactions will occur as they should, the fish are comfortable, the corals thrive and nusiance algae doesn't start growing wild.
We don't have a lot of control over the CO2 gas - it will diffuse into and out of the water as needed. The water can only hold so much CO2 gas, and it trys to reach a saturated state, or equalibrium.
As any of these levels change or are allowed to change, the other's are affected. They all interact with each other, and a change in one affects the others.
The kicker is that when we talk about adding something to our tanks - such as calcium - we are not just adding calcium.
Calcium by itself is a metal, and can't be added as such.
So we must add it in some other chemical form, such as calcium chloride, polyglconate calcium, Kalkwasser as calcium hydroxide or use a calcium reactor which dissolves pure calcium carbonate and drips it into the tankwater.
Same with buffers. We don't just add carbonates. We add sodium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate, sodium borate and so on.
And here's the real kicker ....
In a FO or FOWLR tank - the need to monitor the alkalinity and calcium levels is not near as important as in a reef tank.
If you want good coralline algae growth - it's important.
But if just keeping fish - it not as vital to tweek these levels all the time.
I'm not saying it's not important, just not "as" important.
Regular water changes will most likely do the trick.
pH on the otherhand - should be monitored always in any marine tank.

 

[saltyrich]

Allow me to recommend that we ALL print out this discussion for future reference. I can only strive to be on such a level.

 

[mb4000]

Sgt York. I have read and I may be wrong, that in order for a substrate to actually buffer a tank the ph would have to drop well below 7.6. Your tank is pretty new so I think that your tank just has not matured enough and produced enough waste to really show a drop in PH. I could be wrong though.