Calcium Question

[sgt__york]

Hey guyz.. i've heard a few ppl talk about a Klawkwasher drip... I know it's not difficult - and I had done that in the past. As i understand it - you get a reservoir (i used a 5 gal bucket) - installed a drip value about 2" up from the bottom - and you basically let it drip into the system. The idea is unwanted sediment is caught inthe bottom of the bucket - and the calcium mix drips slowly into your system - dripping slightly slower than ur evaporation rate - so it's a constant addition of calcium. Do I understand this correct??
NEXT - is this system still used and recommended?? The LFS said that is an old system - and really not necessary with the chemicals avaiable today. Is this true - or a sales job??
His recommendation is bi-weekly drops of SEACEMS "REEF COMPLETE" Basically make it a regular additive - like you would stronium and iodine for trace elements.
What are peoples experiences with calcium replenishments, trace element additives (besides weekly water changes)?
ALSO - what about a system (like the klawk drip system) for making this a bit more automated?? ie, a drip bag, or some form of drip system so it more regular and automated.

 

[josh]

Yes you have got the basic idea down. You can do a search for DIY kalk drippers, there are all kinds of them. You might only want to drip at night, when the pH is the lowest if you are going to be adding enough at a time to replenish you evaporation.
I use a dosing pump - litermeter - to dose kalk 24/7. It only adds a small amount so I can dose it 24/7 to keep up with evaporation and add cal to the system.
Sure you can use a 2 part additive such as b ionic or just use reef calcium and builder twice a week. However, dosing kalk to a few extra things that are important. For instance it helps to precipitate out phospahtes in the system, which as you probably know is a good thing.
I don't worry about trace elements, water changes take care of them.
HTH

 

[quazi]

Since I am one of the people recommending Kalk, I will reply!
The system is still used and highly recommended. It has made a huge difference in my tank. It is cheap (which is why your LFS may not recommend it ) it is easy (I use a 2.5 gallon water jug with built in spigot - cheap and works great!) and with vinegar (you will need to read up on this to believe it!) it is extremely easy and a great benefit.
check out this link
I also use Tropic Marin Bio-Calcium to keep up with the calcium demand in my tank. Kalk does not provide all the calcium a SPS or even LPS tank needs. However, kalk tends to be a stabilizer, an alk increaser, and help precipitate out phosphates!

 

[sgt__york]

*bump*
any other thoughts on this
and more specifically - the use of VINAGER with a Kalk drip???

 

[bang guy]

Vinegar is appropriate if:
Calcium and Carbonate consumption in the reef is too high to maintain through the use of unspiked limewater
and
there are no known problems associated with excess nutrients currently existing in the reef.

 

[josh]

Yes vinegar does increase calcium's solubitity and lower the pH of the limewater. However, bang is correct it can lead to an increase in nutrients, as it is another carbon source for the tank.

 

[sgt__york]

ok... maybe some dumb questions rising here - as i'm newer to the reef/coral side of the hobby.
How do you know if u have high or excess nutrients?? What nutrients are you speaking of.
AS i understand.. the basic tests are:
ammonia/nitrite/nitrate
Ph/salinity
phosphates
as u get into corals ur more concerned with
calcium
alk
can you give a little more info (on the basic side) of the nutrients u are speaking of - and what tests are best to determine if you want to setup ur kalk with limewater or vinager, etc.
u see my setup below - my calcium just tested at 320 (a bit low) i need toget it up to 400-450.
info here greatly appreciated...

 

[quazi]

From another thread:
Dissolving the Kalk powder in the Vinegar first will accomplish several very good things.
- First, it will get more Calcium ions (Ca++) into the solution because you are dissolving the Ca(OH)2 in an acid instead of water, and forming Calcium Acetate, which exists as a dissociated equilibrium of free Calcium ions and Acetate ions.
-Second, the Acetic Acid (Vinegar) provides an equivalent of all the CO2 you need to avoid precipitating the newly-added Calcium ions as useless white Calcium Carbonate powder.
- Third, after all the cool Calcium ion chemistry is over, the leftover Acetate ions from the broken-down Vinegar leaves you with free organic Carbon in the water that feeds the bacteria in your tank so that it converts more poisonous Nitrates to NO2 gas (a very good thing).
end quote
So, it helps your bacteria in tank to do their work more efficiently. It seems to me, if you have excess nitrates, this would help be a help.
However, Sgt York, realize that kalk will not raise your Ca, it will stabilize it and help maintain it. You STILL need a Ca source to boost your Ca to over 400, and as I said, I find Tropic Marin's Bio-Calcium excellent, if very hard to find. Other Calcium additives will do well, also.

 

[sgt__york]

Originally posted by quazi
However, Sgt York, realize that kalk will not raise your Ca, it will stabilize it and help maintain it. You STILL need a Ca source to boost your Ca to over 400, and as I said, I find Tropic Marin's Bio-Calcium excellent, if very hard to find. Other Calcium additives will do well, also.

I thought the entire REASON for dripping kalk was to raise Calcium?? Am i mistaken here?? I realize there is maintaining also - but if u did NOT add kalk earlier - and begin to add it - doesn't it make sense it will raise it??
*grabbing box of kalk*
reading Kent Marine Kalkwasser Mix....
"Kalkwasser will provide calcium for lush growth of purple, pink and green clcareous algaes, snails, hard tube worms, and clams. It will allow corals to lay down new layers of calcium carbonate. When mixed with water, it will provide bio-available calcium to reef inhabitatnts. Contains no bluconates, EDTA or other organics to raise DOC levels. Tihs product is th original European method that ha never been equaled for calcium addition to a reef system"
REPEAT - ".. FOR calcium addition to a reef system"
ok... unless i'm misunderstanding something - ur telling me Kalk is NOT for raising calcium?? That i would need a different product for that??
* totally confused now* (look'n for clarification)

 

[sgt__york]

another question... reading this in the directions area.. is mentions..
"Only mix enough to last a week......Use drip method or dosing pump to drip into system on a continual basis to replace all water lost to evaporation"
Leads to a couple questions.... how do most of you handle evaporation? do you simply add water back in every X number of days when ur sump reaches a certain level? Is there some kind of small FLOAT device - that turns a pump on/off to keep adding water from a remote reservoire - so the level basically always stays the same? IF SO, could it pull from some ready made kalk mix? Would that be too much at one time? Do you basically just try to independantly GUESS the 2 rates (evaporation for water out - and drips for water IN) and try to make them about the same??
Just wondered how ppl handle their evaporation replacement "AS IT PERTAINS" to adding kalk mix (for those that use it also).

 

[quazi]

Sgt York,
You are adding CA, just not enough to raise level significantly. If you were not adding Ca, it would not REPLACE Ca.
If you tank is @ 320, you need to add some significant Ca to your tank. Kalk is not enough. I add Ca every week, over and above the kalk I drip in with every replacement water addition.

 

[sgt__york]

doesn't the load (inhabitants using up the Calcium) also play a part tho? Besides coraline algae - what else is really using the Ca in my tank?? Don't have many corals yet. If i understand - ur saying add a Ca product to raise it - use Kalk to maintain (replenish it). At waht point is Kalk not enough to maintain it? (as you said u still have to add Ca weekly).
PS: if you are having to add Ca weekly anyways - then what is the really significance of using Kalk also?? I thought it's entire purpose was Calcium addition.

 

[quazi]

1) doesn't the load (inhabitants using up the Calcium) also play a part tho?
A) Yes, of course! That is why kalk is a maintenance solution. Your current level @ 320 is not a maintenance issue, it is a restorative issue.
2)Besides coraline algae - what else is really using the Ca in my tank??
A) Crabs, shrimp, snails, even the fish to some extent. Don't discount the Ca load required for your algae. When your tank was new, your Ca was probably ~400. Something is using it.
3)At waht point is Kalk not enough to maintain it? (as you said u still have to add Ca weekly).
A) You need to test that for your self with your tank water
4) if you are having to add Ca weekly anyways - then what is the really significance of using Kalk also??
A)Using Kalk provide CA replenishment and Alk improvement, as well as helping precipitate out phosphates!

 

[bang guy]

Another BIG parameter on Calcium maintenance with KALK is your evaporation rate. If it's slow with a high Ca demand then Kalk is not going to be a total solution.
In answer to your question of topoff, a lot of people automate the topoff. ie. Water level in the sump drops and this triggers topoff to be added. There are several ways to do this depending on budget and space.

 

[josh]

You don't want to mix anymore kalk than you can use in a weeks time and you do want to keep it in an air tight container if possible.
--- The kalk does break down over time, this is because of CO2 introduction. It essentially breaks the calcium down.... not unlike in your tank which is why you want to keep it sealed up.
As for top off, I use a liter meter to dose kalk 24/7