California puts 0bama between a rock and a hard place

[darthtang aw]

Actual Ca resident, checking in.
Someone wants me to suffer being murdered and raped? That's nice.

You came to mind when I read this. This thread is no longer of any value after statements like that.
There is only one person I wish pain and sufferring on.......
Darth (I hate bret michaels) Tang

 

[stdreb27]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/385963/california-puts-0bama-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place/20#post_3387470
Quote:
Originally Posted by socal57che http:///forum/thread/385963/california-puts-0bama-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place#post_3387468
Actual Ca resident, checking in.
Someone wants me to suffer being murdered and raped? That's nice.

You came to mind when I read this. This thread is no longer of any value after statements like that.
There is only one person I wish pain and sufferring on.......
Darth (I hate bret michaels) Tang
You know I grew up surrounded by the "illegal immigrant" crowd. (and this is just me) but I'd rather had 10 people willing to walk over miles of desert, just to get here, vs 1000 people on welfare who think their socio/economic problems is the white man's fault. The problem is (another reason why drugs should never be legalized) is when drugs get involved.
The problem is, it is impossible to cull the bad apples from the good ones. And at this point, drugs are making a bigger and bigger percentage of them as bad apples...

 

[mantisman51]

I love how you turn everything around 57, you are quite proficient at it. So if I said, "I think anyone who sticks a fork in a socket deserves to get shocked", you'd say, "I have electricity. You want me to get shocked." That is the lowest intellectual quotient of making a point. But I don't expect much from people nowadays(it's a real word google it). The fact is I have said, and will not waiver, those that want these illegals(those in this country illegally-not Mexicans or wetbacks or any names YOU have used, not me) deserve the crime that comes with them. California has made it clear they want them by flaunting Federal law, therefore the state deserves the crime that will come with them. Bionic, #1) they are going to take a large part of the crime with them when they leave the ghetto, property prices in the inner city have nowhere to go but up. #2) we all know the money saved that anyone hiring illegals is passed on in savings to the customers, right? Have I met illegals that were decent, hard-working people? Absolutely. The problem is that impoverished people from 3rd world countries have a much higher level of crime than the industrialized world. That is why we have laws to screen the people who come here. That is why immigrants should obey the law. So we can have a better chance of getting rid of the bad while retaining the good.

 

[mantisman51]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/385963/california-puts-0bama-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place/20#post_3387470
Quote:
Originally Posted by socal57che http:///forum/thread/385963/california-puts-0bama-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place#post_3387468
Actual Ca resident, checking in.
Someone wants me to suffer being murdered and raped? That's nice.

You came to mind when I read this. This thread is no longer of any value after statements like that.
There is only one person I wish pain and sufferring on.......
Darth (I hate bret michaels) Tang
Really Darth? You don't get the simple concept of a state reaping what they sow? I expected more from you. Him not so much. BTW Out of 15 brothers and sisters, 14 live in California.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/385963/california-puts-0bama-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place#post_3387467
Just don't complain when all those businesses either shut their doors because they can't afford to pay the "normal help" the $8 - $10 per hour they're paying those illegals $3 - $5 per hour for the same work, or the price of goods and services in Arizona skyrocket because their only alternative is to pay the higher wages. You'll get rid of all those "stinkin' cockroaches", but you'll pay for it out of your pocket. Also hope you don't mind your property values plummeting. With all those rental properties going into foreclosure because those "illegals" aren't there to rent them, your house will lose about 1/3 of its value. Cause and effect..
LOL! It's a myth that illegals work that cheap. When they cracked Swift up here a few years ago some of the jobs they had were paying a little over 19.00 an hour.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by stdreb27 http:///forum/thread/385963/california-puts-0bama-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place/20#post_3387491
You know I grew up surrounded by the "illegal immigrant" crowd. (and this is just me) but I'd rather had 10 people willing to walk over miles of desert, just to get here, vs 1000 people on welfare who think their socio/economic problems is the white man's fault. The problem is (another reason why drugs should never be legalized) is when drugs get involved.
The problem is, it is impossible to cull the bad apples from the good ones. And at this point, drugs are making a bigger and bigger percentage of them as bad apples...
There are plenty of illegals riding the hammock too. I am all for granting work visas to those who have never been convicted of a crime and haven't stolen public services. We can't deport 10 million but that doesn't mean we shouldn't get as many out as we can. I would never give them citizenship. Make them go through the same process their fellow countrymen who didn't ignore our laws do.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/385963/california-puts-0bama-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place/20#post_3387516
LOL! It's a myth that illegals work that cheap. When they cracked Swift up here a few years ago some of the jobs they had were paying a little over 19.00 an hour.
Exception to the rule. Ask some of these migrant workers that float all over the country working the fields and farmlands what the get per day. If illegals are making that much money, then why would a business hire them, risking a chance to get shut down, when they could hire any LEGAL US citizen off the street for the same price?

 

[socal57che]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///forum/thread/385963/california-puts-0bama-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place/20#post_3387503
I love how you turn everything around 57, you are quite proficient at it. So if I said, "I think anyone who sticks a fork in a socket deserves to get shocked", you'd say, "I have electricity. You want me to get shocked." That is the lowest intellectual quotient of making a point. But I don't expect much from people nowadays(it's a real word google it). The fact is I have said, and will not waiver, those that want these illegals(those in this country illegally-not Mexicans or wetbacks or any names YOU have used, not me) deserve the crime that comes with them. California has made it clear they want them by flaunting Federal law, therefore the state deserves the crime that will come with them. Bionic, #1) they are going to take a large part of the crime with them when they leave the ghetto, property prices in the inner city have nowhere to go but up. #2) we all know the money saved that anyone hiring illegals is passed on in savings to the customers, right? Have I met illegals that were decent, hard-working people? Absolutely. The problem is that impoverished people from 3rd world countries have a much higher level of crime than the industrialized world. That is why we have laws to screen the people who come here. That is why immigrants should obey the law. So we can have a better chance of getting rid of the bad while retaining the good.
1) If you don't like what falls out of your mouth, consider what you're about to say before opening it. (also applies to typing)
2) I, for one, hope your family members living in Ca are not murdered and raped. Have you mentioned this sentiment to them lately? They may not agree with you.
3) I never called anyone a wetback. Now you're just making things up.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///forum/thread/385963/california-puts-0bama-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place/20#post_3387503
I love how you turn everything around 57, you are quite proficient at it. So if I said, "I think anyone who sticks a fork in a socket deserves to get shocked", you'd say, "I have electricity. You want me to get shocked." That is the lowest intellectual quotient of making a point. But I don't expect much from people nowadays(it's a real word google it). The fact is I have said, and will not waiver, those that want these illegals(those in this country illegally-not Mexicans or wetbacks or any names YOU have used, not me) deserve the crime that comes with them. California has made it clear they want them by flaunting Federal law, therefore the state deserves the crime that will come with them. Bionic, #1) they are going to take a large part of the crime with them when they leave the ghetto, property prices in the inner city have nowhere to go but up. #2) we all know the money saved that anyone hiring illegals is passed on in savings to the customers, right? Have I met illegals that were decent, hard-working people? Absolutely. The problem is that impoverished people from 3rd world countries have a much higher level of crime than the industrialized world. That is why we have laws to screen the people who come here. That is why immigrants should obey the law. So we can have a better chance of getting rid of the bad while retaining the good.
I'll be interested to see the before/after crime statistics of a region in this country where illegals have lived then moved away.
A businesses main goal in life is to make a profit. One of the highest expenses for any business is labor costs. You keep those costs low, you keep the price of your products and goods down as well. Increase labor costs, and prices go up accordingly. If you shut a business down for hiring illegals, you also make the technical, managerial, and high-paying salary postions go away as well. End result in higher unemployment numbers. When businesses shut down, cities lose tax revenues. When cities begin facing budget deficits due to lost tax rolls, they have three options - reduce services, charge more for services, or increase taxes to offset the losses. Either case, it's a lose/lose scenario for the residents left behind. Chase those illegals out of town, and all you downstream businesses (grocery stores, retail outlets, restaurants, etc.) lose loyal customers. More businesses shut down, and the remaining businesses increase their prices due to lack of competition. Blame it on the Liberals or whoever you want. Still boils down to cause and effect...

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/385963/california-puts-0bama-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place/20#post_3387520
Exception to the rule. Ask some of these migrant workers that float all over the country working the fields and farmlands what the get per day. If illegals are making that much money, then why would a business hire them, risking a chance to get shut down, when they could hire any LEGAL US citizen off the street for the same price?
OK, Roofers here were making 10 to 12 an hour and they were illegals. Lawn maintanance companies are paying 8 to 10. Those are just two other examples I know of. Farm workers don't make up as much illegals as people think because it's pretty easy to get migrant visas.

 

[stdreb27]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/385963/california-puts-0bama-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place/20#post_3387518
There are plenty of illegals riding the hammock too. I am all for granting work visas to those who have never been convicted of a crime and haven't stolen public services. We can't deport 10 million but that doesn't mean we shouldn't get as many out as we can. I would never give them citizenship. Make them go through the same process their fellow countrymen who didn't ignore our laws do.
IMO that is the problem with Lib's, they have groups and stuff, going around recruiting illegals, signing em up for government assistance etc. There are whole (in my own words) re-education programs, getting them onto the government dole. One of the things I'd love to do is to start a right wing version of that, use my life and my family's immigration story, and a road map on how to be successful in the USA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/385963/california-puts-0bama-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place/20#post_3387520
Exception to the rule. Ask some of these migrant workers that float all over the country working the fields and farmlands what the get per day. If illegals are making that much money, then why would a business hire them, risking a chance to get shut down, when they could hire any LEGAL US citizen off the street for the same price?
I tend to agree. Hey look a free market answer from Bionicarm...

 

[mantisman51]

Bionic:All you have to do is look at the areas they've flooded to the last 10 years. Why do you think Price George and Fairfax Counties in Virginia tried to pass county laws like Az 1070. Everywhere large numbers of illegals flock to, crime skyrockets. That's not even a fact La (klan with a tan) Raza would argue. 57: I never once used any race or bigoted name for illegals. Those examples were thrown at me. I never said anything in regard to nationality. OTM's are making up about 40% of illegals being caught, so it is not about a specific nationality. I apologize, I did lump you in with those who wrote those things. My entire point, made with hyperbole, is that by California throwing out the welcome mat, they are welcoming the crime that comes with it and therefore will deserve what happens from the flood.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/385963/california-puts-0bama-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place/20#post_3387524
I'll be interested to see the before/after crime statistics of a region in this country where illegals have lived then moved away.
A businesses main goal in life is to make a profit. One of the highest expenses for any business is labor costs. You keep those costs low, you keep the price of your products and goods down as well. Increase labor costs, and prices go up accordingly. If you shut a business down for hiring illegals, you also make the technical, managerial, and high-paying salary postions go away as well. End result in higher unemployment numbers. When businesses shut down, cities lose tax revenues. When cities begin facing budget deficits due to lost tax rolls, they have three options - reduce services, charge more for services, or increase taxes to offset the losses. Either case, it's a lose/lose scenario for the residents left behind. Chase those illegals out of town, and all you downstream businesses (grocery stores, retail outlets, restaurants, etc.) lose loyal customers. More businesses shut down, and the remaining businesses increase their prices due to lack of competition. Blame it on the Liberals or whoever you want. Still boils down to cause and effect...
Crime is actually higher than reported in areas with lots of illegals because they don't call the cops when they are the victims. You have people (including other illegals) who target them because they know they wont call the cops.
As far as a plus or minus to society consider this. The only way an illegal can pay income tax is if they have stolen an ID. Even them nearly all claim enough expemptions that they have no income tax taken from their paycheck, just FICA. And According to the Social Security Administration it costs more in man hours to correct the record once they discover the fraud than they collected. That doesn't take into account the cost and hassle to the person who's itentity was stolen. Many illegals send a large portion of their income back to whatever country they came from. Money send back from the United States to Mexico generates more income than the country's oil and gas industry. California alone is spending more than a Billion a year on welfare benefits for illegals or the children of illegals and that doesn't include things like ER room visits, foodbanks and charities. Yeah, they are so vital to our economy.

 

[mantisman51]

http://washingtonexaminer.com/local/dc/gangs-flee-nvafor-havens-md-dc-report-says
My bad, Prince George County is in Maryland-another DC suburb, though. This is a microcosm of what is going to happen as we flush them out of Arizona. The Bible says not to wish evil upon people. I am wrong for saying I would be happy for the crime. However, you know all these crips and bloods and MS13 that are operating in Phoenix and Tucson (even the liberal media here admits it's mostly illegals or their children), as we in Az put the squeeze on them, they are heading Cali way. Then all this will no longer be a philosophical argument, the crime will be real and terrible.

 

[mantisman51]

Please read the story, even if you disagree with me. I think even folks who think the illegals are just a bunch of down and out immigrants will be disturbed by what happens in safe haven cities.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/385963/california-puts-0bama-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place/20#post_3387541
Crime is actually higher than reported in areas with lots of illegals because they don't call the cops when they are the victims. You have people (including other illegals) who target them because they know they wont call the cops.
As far as a plus or minus to society consider this. The only way an illegal can pay income tax is if they have stolen an ID. Even them nearly all claim enough expemptions that they have no income tax taken from their paycheck, just FICA. And According to the Social Security Administration it costs more in man hours to correct the record once they discover the fraud than they collected. That doesn't take into account the cost and hassle to the person who's itentity was stolen. Many illegals send a large portion of their income back to whatever country they came from. Money send back from the United States to Mexico generates more income than the country's oil and gas industry. California alone is spending more than a Billion a year on welfare benefits for illegals or the children of illegals and that doesn't include things like ER room visits, foodbanks and charities. Yeah, they are so vital to our economy.
Look, I don't agree with allowing illegals to live in this country without proper documentation. I see it just as much as mantis does in San Antonio. They don't call us Little Mexico for nothing.
The Feds are losing the revenue, not the local communities. If these illegals are renting/owning homes, they are paying taxes to the city in some form or fashion. When they do their little shopping around town, they are paying the same sales tax as the legal citizens. They pay the same gas tax when they fill up their cars. Would a mass exodus of illegals from Phoenix or Tuscon have an overall economic effect on those cities? By what mantis says, I guess we'll soon find out.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/385963/california-puts-0bama-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place/20#post_3387567
Look, I don't agree with allowing illegals to live in this country without proper documentation. I see it just as much as mantis does in San Antonio. They don't call us Little Mexico for nothing.
The Feds are losing the revenue, not the local communities. If these illegals are renting/owning homes, they are paying taxes to the city in some form or fashion. When they do their little shopping around town, they are paying the same sales tax as the legal citizens. They pay the same gas tax when they fill up their cars. Would a mass exodus of illegals from Phoenix or Tuscon have an overall economic effect on those cities? By what mantis says, I guess we'll soon find out.
First off most illegals shouldn't be driving anyway because they have no license, let alone insurance. They pay sales tax like the rest of us but don't pay income taxes, state or federal. A number of them also use identity theft to get their job which affects the citizen they robbed.
If you could snap your fingers and make them all disappear overnight I personally believe we'd be better off in the long run. If unemployment were under 5 percent I wouldn't have that same opinion. But this is a great time to use reasonable tools like E verify and restricting public services to force as many out as possible before we concede defeat. I also oppose ever giving them citizenship. What I mean by that is if they turn themselves in, haven't been convicted of a serious crime give them a work visa and allow them to apply for citizenship using the same system as their fellow countrymen who didn't break out laws to come here. I have a real problem just giving them, or putting them on a fast track for that which they stole.

 

[darthtang aw]

Mantis.....my comment was mainly about wish harm on the citizens of california for their belifs...as that is what political views are....beliefs. would you wish harm on jewish people because they don't believe the messiah has come yet ate the time of revelations? That is all I was driving at.
This issue has become more and more complex as the years go by...which has forced myself to look at things differently.especially living in a border state. The majority of those crossing, are good decent, hard working people. The children tend to be the criminals...the children are born here. So from what I see the citizens are committing the crimes...a small percentage crossing that are staying are criminals...
Now with that said...I wonder if this is a result to all the hours the parents need to work the kids end up with no true upbringing leading to crime. I know...a very liberal mentality, but then again..this is what I see.
So if the parents were given citizenship...might the crime go down some degree? Due to working legalling for a solid wage...they would have more family time...thus bettering their children's upbringing.
This is one issue I can go either way on...as I see the benefits to both sides. I also see the downside to bothsides.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///forum/thread/385963/california-puts-0bama-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place/20#post_3387581
Mantis.....my comment was mainly about wish harm on the citizens of california for their belifs...as that is what political views are....beliefs. would you wish harm on jewish people because they don't believe the messiah has come yet ate the time of revelations? That is all I was driving at.
This issue has become more and more complex as the years go by...which has forced myself to look at things differently.especially living in a border state. The majority of those crossing, are good decent, hard working people. The children tend to be the criminals...the children are born here. So from what I see the citizens are committing the crimes...a small percentage crossing that are staying are criminals...
Now with that said...I wonder if this is a result to all the hours the parents need to work the kids end up with no true upbringing leading to crime. I know...a very liberal mentality, but then again..this is what I see.
So if the parents were given citizenship...might the crime go down some degree? Due to working legalling for a solid wage...they would have more family time...thus bettering their children's upbringing.
This is one issue I can go either way on...as I see the benefits to both sides. I also see the downside to bothsides.
If you take an illegal couple both working under the table and make them legal are their incomes going to increase enough after paying income taxes and FICA to change the number of hours they work?
Another interesting aspect of the point Bionic brought up. He wonders what would happen if we kicked all the illegals out and businesses suddenly had to start paying real wages to citizens workers. Well, if you make the illegals citizens you have the same problem PLUS depending on who you talk to 12 to 20 million new citizens elligable for a whole lot of government aid they can't currently get. If we don't force a significant number of the illegals out before we act on "comprehensive" reform it's going to be a disaster.

 

[darthtang aw]

 
If you take an illegal couple both working under the table and make them legal are their incomes going to increase enough after paying income taxes and FICA to change the number of hours they work?
 
Another interesting aspect of the point Bionic brought up. He wonders what would happen if we kicked all the illegals out and businesses suddenly had to start paying real wages to citizens workers. Well, if you make the illegals citizens you have the same problem PLUS depending on who you talk to 12 to 20 million new citizens elligable for a whole lot of government aid they can't currently get. If we don't force a significant number of the illegals out before we act on "comprehensive" reform it's going to be a disaster.
 
 
As an illegal, you are limited on choices. Being legal, may have to work the same amount of hours, but shift choices could open up more..ensure atleast one parent is home at all times.
I am by no means saying amnesty is the answer...but I can see how it might benefit in some cases.