can anyone tell me if this will work
- Thread starter noob101
- Start date
turningtim
Active Member
This is pretty rough but may help with what squidd is talking about.
HTH
Tim
HTH
Tim
turningtim
Active Member
Originally Posted by cain420
from my understanding you want the return pump AFTER the fuge... so all the water must flow through it in order to get to the return pump.
Not nessasarily so, If you put all the drain through the fuge you have no flow control through the fuge. It is also my understanding that it is best to give each, the skimmer and fuge, raw tank water rather then have them one after the other.
JMO
Tim
from my understanding you want the return pump AFTER the fuge... so all the water must flow through it in order to get to the return pump.
Not nessasarily so, If you put all the drain through the fuge you have no flow control through the fuge. It is also my understanding that it is best to give each, the skimmer and fuge, raw tank water rather then have them one after the other.
JMO
Tim
turningtim
Active Member
Originally Posted by cain420
that still isnt having ALL the water pass through the fuge, and will not be as effective..
in both of your diagrams, there is water that is being returned to the tank without going through the fuge...
I respectfully disagree, you need to have control of flow through the fuge. Flowing to much water through will not be as effective as a controlled flow. This also lends itself to be able to upgrade pumps and such without having to redegn a whole system.
JMO
Tim
that still isnt having ALL the water pass through the fuge, and will not be as effective..
in both of your diagrams, there is water that is being returned to the tank without going through the fuge...
I respectfully disagree, you need to have control of flow through the fuge. Flowing to much water through will not be as effective as a controlled flow. This also lends itself to be able to upgrade pumps and such without having to redegn a whole system.
JMO
Tim
noob101
Member
hey tim can u tell me what would be best for this kinda set up a 55g tank now but plan on upgrading next year after i get this tank goin and learn somemore about the hobby. but the dimensions i have put it around 39 gal sump setup should i make bigger for a 150 or 200 or would a 40 gal sump work for those.
if so i can make bigger finishing up stand now for 55g and have plenty of room for a larger sump setup was just curious if i should make a little bigger to add other equipment i am goin to need for a much larger tank.
if so i can make bigger finishing up stand now for 55g and have plenty of room for a larger sump setup was just curious if i should make a little bigger to add other equipment i am goin to need for a much larger tank.
turningtim
Active Member
Honestly noob I was in the same boat. But with that big of a jump I would just worry about getting this one up and running. The problem is that the system will be to big for the 55 and too small for a 150. From what I've read (squidd) it is recomended to have a fuge 1/2 the size of the main tank. With what you have now will certainly work for the 55 but to be in the ballpark for a 150+ you're looking at 50-75 for just the fuge.
Trust me I'm right with you on your thinking but somethimes you just have to cut your losses. Besides I really looked at my 55 as an experiment for the bigger tank. Take this as a learning experience. The other thing that I plan on if I don't keep the 55 is selling as whole unit.
Just some thoughts!
HTH
Tim
Trust me I'm right with you on your thinking but somethimes you just have to cut your losses. Besides I really looked at my 55 as an experiment for the bigger tank. Take this as a learning experience. The other thing that I plan on if I don't keep the 55 is selling as whole unit.
Just some thoughts!
HTH
Tim
squidd
Active Member
from my understanding you want the return pump AFTER the fuge... so all the water must flow through it in order to get to the return pump.
that still isnt having ALL the water pass through the fuge, and will not be as effective..
in both of your diagrams, there is water that is being returned to the tank without going through the fuge...
There is more than one way to run a sump/fuge setup...the "Flow thru" design as you describe and the "Pump in center" design as Tim describes...
I have run both and found the pump in center (split fuge ansd skimmer) much easier to control, more effecient in malnutrient removal, and the ability to "seperate" fuge from system (for maintainence) a great plus...
The system you describe is easier to set up, but not as managable...
But that's JMO...
that still isnt having ALL the water pass through the fuge, and will not be as effective..
in both of your diagrams, there is water that is being returned to the tank without going through the fuge...
There is more than one way to run a sump/fuge setup...the "Flow thru" design as you describe and the "Pump in center" design as Tim describes...
I have run both and found the pump in center (split fuge ansd skimmer) much easier to control, more effecient in malnutrient removal, and the ability to "seperate" fuge from system (for maintainence) a great plus...
The system you describe is easier to set up, but not as managable...
But that's JMO...
squidd
Active Member
The problem is that the system will be to big for the 55 and too small for a 150. From what I've read (squidd) it is recomended to have a fuge 1/2 the size of the main tank.
Actually the 39/40 would be just about "right" for a 55...
There are two "keys" to use in setting your Goals for sizing the fuge...
1. 1/2 MT up to 90, 35% MT up to 180 and 25% MT anything over...(that's fuge only size)
2. Ability to run 1 1/2x skimmer volume...AND...all flow from fuge...to return pump while controlling bubble travel...
In both these instances bigger is better, as most experiencing troubles with their systems are trying to "squeeze" the water somewhere and compromising efficiency and reliability in the process
Actually the 39/40 would be just about "right" for a 55...
There are two "keys" to use in setting your Goals for sizing the fuge...
1. 1/2 MT up to 90, 35% MT up to 180 and 25% MT anything over...(that's fuge only size)
2. Ability to run 1 1/2x skimmer volume...AND...all flow from fuge...to return pump while controlling bubble travel...
In both these instances bigger is better, as most experiencing troubles with their systems are trying to "squeeze" the water somewhere and compromising efficiency and reliability in the process
turningtim
Active Member
Originally Posted by Squidd
Actually the 39/40 would be just about "right" for a 55...
There are two "keys" to use in setting your Goals for sizing the fuge...
1. 1/2 MT up to 90, 35% MT up to 180 and 25% MT anything over...(that's fuge only size)
2. Ability to run 1 1/2x skimmer volume...AND...all flow from fuge...to return pump while controlling bubble travel...
In both these instances bigger is better, as most experiencing troubles with their systems are trying to "squeeze" the water somewhere and compromising efficiency and reliability in the process
Sorry didn't mean that what he had was to small. I just meant trying to find something in between is very difficult to satisfy both tanks sizes.
Squidd, I have read the 1 1/2x skimmer volume and I guess I just don't get. Is this to say that if you run a skimmer with a 700 gph pump (ev180) that your goal flow is 1050 through the sump? Does anything change if its run on a smaller tank then its capabilities? I plan to run this on a 120 and plan to flow about 10x, so I don't think it's an issue but just thought I would ask while we're on the subject.
Thanks
Tim
Actually the 39/40 would be just about "right" for a 55...
There are two "keys" to use in setting your Goals for sizing the fuge...
1. 1/2 MT up to 90, 35% MT up to 180 and 25% MT anything over...(that's fuge only size)
2. Ability to run 1 1/2x skimmer volume...AND...all flow from fuge...to return pump while controlling bubble travel...
In both these instances bigger is better, as most experiencing troubles with their systems are trying to "squeeze" the water somewhere and compromising efficiency and reliability in the process
Sorry didn't mean that what he had was to small. I just meant trying to find something in between is very difficult to satisfy both tanks sizes.
Squidd, I have read the 1 1/2x skimmer volume and I guess I just don't get. Is this to say that if you run a skimmer with a 700 gph pump (ev180) that your goal flow is 1050 through the sump? Does anything change if its run on a smaller tank then its capabilities? I plan to run this on a 120 and plan to flow about 10x, so I don't think it's an issue but just thought I would ask while we're on the subject.
Thanks
Tim
squidd
Active Member
It's kind of a generalization of flow for skimmer effeciency...
Your skimmer is only going to pick up/pump/use so much water per cycle..in this case 700gph...
Confining and concentrating water around it allows it to be the most efficient per "cycle" of the water flowing past...
If you were to flow too much water past it, it would get missed and returned to the tank "unskimmed"...if you were to run too little past it it would "re-skim the same water and not work to full capacity...(both inefficient)
The 1 1/2 rate seems to move enough new/raw water past the skimmer intake to run it at full capability with out "wasting" flow capacity of return pump...and still maintain enough flow past outlet so it doesn't "re-skim" the same water over and over...
Then you need to balance this rate with the requirements of fuge flow, overflow capacity and return pump sizing to help in determining "split" of flow from drains...as well as sump size...
If (for example) you only had a 600gph overflow and return pump...and were sending 300gph thru fuge....your skimmer would be sucking on the "other" 300 over and over...running at 1/2 effeciency...
300gph might be the right flow rate for your fuge, but you would want to up size the overflow and return pump to help skimmer effeciency...but then would also need to consider sump sizing...300gph thru a 10 gallon sump may be fine, but 1000gph would be bubble city...
See how they all tie together...?
Your skimmer is only going to pick up/pump/use so much water per cycle..in this case 700gph...
Confining and concentrating water around it allows it to be the most efficient per "cycle" of the water flowing past...
If you were to flow too much water past it, it would get missed and returned to the tank "unskimmed"...if you were to run too little past it it would "re-skim the same water and not work to full capacity...(both inefficient)
The 1 1/2 rate seems to move enough new/raw water past the skimmer intake to run it at full capability with out "wasting" flow capacity of return pump...and still maintain enough flow past outlet so it doesn't "re-skim" the same water over and over...
Then you need to balance this rate with the requirements of fuge flow, overflow capacity and return pump sizing to help in determining "split" of flow from drains...as well as sump size...
If (for example) you only had a 600gph overflow and return pump...and were sending 300gph thru fuge....your skimmer would be sucking on the "other" 300 over and over...running at 1/2 effeciency...
300gph might be the right flow rate for your fuge, but you would want to up size the overflow and return pump to help skimmer effeciency...but then would also need to consider sump sizing...300gph thru a 10 gallon sump may be fine, but 1000gph would be bubble city...
See how they all tie together...?
turningtim
Active Member
I got ya! Perfect logic as usual! But it looks as though I may have to crunch some more numbers. I understand now, when you said to build around the sump/fuge. I was more concerned with the tank flow.
Sorry about the hijack
Thanks Squidd I'll start a new thread when I'm ready.
Thanks
Tim
Sorry about the hijack
Thanks Squidd I'll start a new thread when I'm ready.
Thanks
Tim