Can ich become resistant to hypo if sg is brought down slowly

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2719095
I disagree. Ich is one of the most adaptive parasites that we know of in SW fish keeping. If a person were to take several weeks to bring the SG down then there I fully believe that the parasite can adapt to the lower SG. There are strains of ich that can survive a properly done hypo. It is rare, but it happens. The 48 hours is important. It allows the fish enough adaptation, but not the parasite. In this case, you will see the spot fall off within week if it is ich. Keep him in Qt for a week from when you saw it. If it is still there then it is not ich.
Oh I so disagree with my archrival Sir Q. The reason Hypo brakes the life cycle of ick is predicated on the laws of physics pure and simple. As you know Sir Q As the adults swim to the bottom of the tank and anchor, they form a membrane surrounding them in order to reproduce, which they do by division. BUT they can not do this at the hypo salinity level since they rely on osmotic pressure difference to pass what they need from the outside through their membrane and with the pressure almost the same there is no way they can achieve any transfer of liquids. They smother to death and are unable to start their division process. You cannot bend the laws of physics (well maybe you have found a way) BUT I AM SURE YOU ALREADY KNOW THIS. So you must know of another way to allow for this transfer. Please enlighten me as well as the rest of us.The reason that we must be precise in our maintaining of the proper salinity is that we must allow for no transfer of fluids that being said hypo is useless until we reach that lowed salinity level. There is no adaptation involved ick can and will divide until we reach hypo salinity levels then the laws of physics take over pure and simple. BTW I do so love having our little chats

 

[sepulatian]

I am fully aware of how hyposalinity effects the parasites. Perhaps I am explaining my point wrong. I am not talking about the parasite being able to reproduce. We know that they are unable to divide in hyposaline conditions. Yes that is how they are killed, by not being able to reproduce, which is why the treatment is effective. I am talking about them being able to survive. Maybe gradually reducing the SG slows down their life cycle, I am trying to find information on it. If I am wrong about ich being able to survive a hypo, then please explain why it happens. Certainly, many cases are because of the hobbyists error. There have also been several cases of ich surviving a four to five week hypo without error. My thought on this is that they must not be reproducing because, as we know, they would die during the division process. They survive the treatment and reproduce as the SG is coming back up. The people that have reported ich coming back have noted that it happened during the increase in SG.

 

[al mc]

I really enjoy it when Sep and Joe debate

While I have no scientific proof to back up my theory

I do believe that there has to be a subset of the Ich parasite that has adapted to lower salinity. Evolution pure and simple. If your fish/invert/rock happens to introduce one of these bugs into your QT then you will probably fail with hyposalinity. However, I do not think that the parasite can mutate within one life cycle to survive hyposalinity conditions. So, if your fish/invert/rock brings in a hypo sensitive strain of Ich it will not survive hyposalinity regardless if you reach that level in 48 or 96 hours.

 

[jshepherd]

Good stuff and when they talk we all learn

I have decided to run a cupramine treatment as well to furthur insure he is fine. I did not want to wait if /when the ich came back strong to find out and waste more time in the qt. I have the seachem copper and ammonia kit and the tank and will watch it close. It is a beautifull powder blue so I hope all goes well.
The instructions say for 2 weeks but I have read 3 on here, when the treatment is over can they be acclimated and put straight to the DT?

 

[al mc]

Originally Posted by jshepherd
http:///forum/post/2720285
The instructions say for 2 weeks but I have read 3 on here, when the treatment is over can they be acclimated and put straight to the DT?
That is what I did with my Hippo Tang. Good luck....it should work fine.

 

[florida joe]

My point being my good friends and you to Sir Q is that a mutant form of ick may very well exist. A form which allows it to remain in a particular part of its life cycle dormant if you will for a greater period of time then we have come to know. But I do not believe that jshepards question was regarding a rogue form of ick but rather can the ick parasites life cycle be interrupted by hypo administered through normal procedures some how change the way it reproduces (osmotic pressure differential) due to lowering the salinity over a longer time frame thus making it immune to hypo. IMO that just cannot happen. Hypo being one of the established worldwide methods of treating ick has no warning that I can find in any publications alluding to the possibility of ick becoming resistant to hypo due to a slow time line lowering salinity.
Information I did find out that is interesting though is this.
Copepods of which, there are about 10,000 species worldwide, 2000 of them are parasitic species 90% of these are marine 20% on fish. And that is just the copepod species. Add all the other parasite species and their different life cycles it is quite possible that “little white dots” do not necessary mean ick. This may explain why hypo and tank fallow methods may not work in the treatment of what one would perceive to be ick. Many of these adult parasites are free swimming and have no need of fish as a host, only their infectious young do. Life spans are also a lot longer as well.

 

[jshepherd]

I feel better knowing that I probably did cure the ich with the round of hypo..... I think haha.
I am not sure which method I will use next time. It sounds like most fish stores run some type of copper in there tanks already or at least claim to giving you the impression that they are safe. For me hypo was not so easy with a busy schedule.

 

[sepulatian]

Even stores that do run copper only run it at a diluted level. They don't run it at treatment strength, only at preventative strength. The fish still need to be quarantined. Many people choose to hypo new fish. I just observe them for a month or more. You have to be just as careful with copper treatment as you do with hypo. If the water evaporates then there is a stronger concentration of copper in the water. You have to be on top of top offs. Unlike copper, hypo is not a poison. You may want to consider an auto top off unit for your QT. It will make any treatment easier if you have a very busy schedule.
My point being my good friends and you too Sir Q
Joe is such a funny fella

 

[reefnutpa]

Originally Posted by jshepherd
http:///forum/post/2716395
I closely watched the powder blue and I could see what looked like specs on his pectoral fins.
It's quite possible the marks you are seeing are scarring caused where the parasites were previously attached.
Tom

 

[jshepherd]

Will the fins scar? I tend to agree if this is possible. You only really see it if his fins are out and light passes through them.
He has been back in the qt since 8/9 then on 8/12 copper started. It is now nearly 2 weeks since back in the qt and a week on .5 copper and they look exactly the same.
Is it safe to say it is not ich? Also there is a small Chromis that is always in the Qt and he is fine as well.