canister vs sump

amadent

Member
It seems that most of the subscribers favor sumps over canisters. The reason I ask is that I am buying a 72gal bow. My local supplier favors a canister type filter, I don't know if you can mention brands. Quote= " If is was me , I would go with this canister." The new tank was ordered not reef ready. Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Confused
 

squidd

Active Member
Canister filters can work...if you "work" them...
They require continued maintenance and regular cleaning..often...to keep from building up deitrus which will then decomplose rapidly and add to nitrates in tank...(closed, "captured" filter system)
A Sump/fuge on the other hand although it also requires "some" maintence is a part of a living filtration system with extra water volume, and promotes malnutrient "export" high flow leading to oxygenation (which promotes biological and bacterial action) is open topped and easier to clean and work on...
 

squidd

Active Member
My thoughts of filtration...
Large (adaquate) quantity of Live Rock and SSB for Biological filtration (suface area for Bacteria)...High Flow , distributed through out the tank to keep deitrus suspended and removed from MT,promote gaseous exchange and maintain oxygen levels...a Large sump and LARGER Fuge with Macros for malnutrient removal through export (denitrification) and a Killer Skimmer to remove Mass quantities of DOCs (organics) prior to decomposition...
With a well balanced system, no other "filtration devices" (bioballs/biomedia) are necessary...Other than the ability to run Chemical Media (carbon or phosphate removers) from time to time, best done in a Fluidized bed (or converted canister) type system...
 

acrylic51

Active Member
Sumps are easier to work with and better IMO and cheaper to run and maintain as well......Cancel the order....if he want's your business and you want a sump go for it......Take the time and research the pros and cons of a sump and then decided. Don't always let the LFS guy convince you.....they are there to sell what they have
 

amadent

Member
thank you. The store owner mentioned concern about overflow or spilage if power went out,true?. I have a canister on my 29 bow. It's ok, not great.
 

acrylic51

Active Member
Squidd so you think a fluidized bed filter is fine for a reef system? I had asked that question a long time ago and got all kinds of crazy inputs on the issue?????
 

stdreb27

Active Member
My LSF said the same thing. So I bought it. Now I'm building a sump. Wishing I hadn't spent the money on a canaster. Don't get my wrong it is a good filter, and you might have to deal with leaks, I didn't tighten the lid just right and when the power went out I had alot of water on my floor.
 

squidd

Active Member
Originally Posted by acrylic51
Squidd so you think a fluidized bed filter is fine for a reef system? I had asked that question a long time ago and got all kinds of crazy inputs on the issue?????
Fluidized beds, or "reactors" (or converted canisters) are good for forcing high flow thru "chemical" media keeping it suspended and maximizing surface area contact...(MUCH better than a "bag" stuck in a sump)
Good for media that is on a regular "replacement" schedual...Carbon 24/48 hrs.- once a month or so..Phosphate and silicate removers 30 day or 3 month (depending on media and size of system) and those used best with a replaceable "pre filter" to capture and remove deitrus.
As far as fluidized sand beds ...No.. ends up a glorified canister filter...
 

windmill

Member
After using canisters/waterfalls for many years, i'm embarking on the sump/overflow project. I'm not sure how easy the whole change will be or how it will affect my tank, but I have high hopes. I haven't even seen the overflow in action but this will probably be the only route for my saltwater tanks from now on. It's gonna be fun removing basically all equipment from the display tank.
 

beadmaker

Member
I don't know much about the plumbing. but my LFS learned the hard way. one pump failed then the overflow shorted out another pump and 30 gal later

I would make sure to consult with someone who KNOWS how.
 

beadmaker

Member
not sure didnt get the whole story just came in during the cleanup. I wanted to set up a sump but don't know anyone who has a successful one... and since murphy's law seems to always apply at our house... the sump is a no go. been pondering a hang on the back refugium..
 

joshd123

Member
I say do what you want. I use NOTHING but 2 waterfall filters off the back of a 105 gallon reef. I will show pictures of it soon. I also have 5 seahorses that I used canster filter and a waterfall. The thing about useing waterfall and canster is that there is MUCH less O2. I had to do more mantiance. My carbon did not last as long. But, I have never had any spills with a waterfall and getting the canster started is a pain the first time till I learned how to use a power head to get it going. I say use a waterfall for fast carbon changes. Then use a sump to be sure you get the GPH you need. This is very important. I have done MANY set-up with every tank I have had. I do sump when time permits. I do cansters and waterfalls when Room is a factor. The buttom line is, what is the end results of the needs of your tank. The only way you can find out is try out all of the items. I will show you pictures of a 105 gallon Reef Ready tank (That is up for sale) I have had a mag 36 on it that pumped 3600 GPH, 25 gallon sump and 10 gallon fuge at one time. Then after MANY mistakes I went with just 2 waterfalls that pump around 400 GPH each and did not use the reef ready part of my tank. The diffrence is my Ni Na Am and so on I had to watch really close. But, just to change the carbon it took me 1 min on each waterfall and I was done. About $6 every 2 weeks and everything was fine. I did that for about 6 months. I now have a 112 gallon 105 gallon 39 gallon 125 gallon and in a month or so I will have a 300 gallon. On all of my new tanks I use sumps because I can put ALL of my skimmers, waterfalls, UV, any extra filters, and can add fuges for more over all water and natural filters and it will not show up on my Display. Here is the 105 with Only 2 Waterfallls that is about 800 GPH You can see a black suction Pipe in the right side and the other is stuck in the overflow on the left side. Look close and you will see!!!
 

acrylic51

Active Member
Originally Posted by beadmaker
not sure didnt get the whole story just came in during the cleanup. I wanted to set up a sump but don't know anyone who has a successful one... and since murphy's law seems to always apply at our house... the sump is a no go. been pondering a hang on the back refugium..
I bet over 90% of the people on the boards run sumps........without issues......I'd be curious as to know how the pump caused a flood.....Other then the front housing splitting, and spewing water??? Was it possible, the overflow clogged and couldn't drain? Or the pump quit pumping and the tank back syphoned to the sump?
 

joshd123

Member
I would say 90% do run sumps but without issues? I think everyone has had a issue with a sump. I know I have. I DIY everything on my very first saltwater setup I had ALL KINDS of problems. I read everything I could get my hands on and it was before I knew about the good people on this site. There is ALOT of stuff that the books do not tell ya HAHA. I have gained very much from reading on SWF.com But I really do think everyone has a problem with something at one time or another when doing Saltwater Sump or not.
 

acrylic51

Active Member
Originally Posted by Joshd123
I would say 90% do run sumps but without issues? I think everyone has had a issue with a sump. I know I have. I DIY everything on my very first saltwater setup I had ALL KINDS of problems. I read everything I could get my hands on and it was before I knew about the good people on this site. There is ALOT of stuff that the books do not tell ya HAHA. I have gained very much from reading on SWF.com But I really do think everyone has a problem with something at one time or another when doing Saltwater Sump or not.
Not doubting what your saying Joshd123, yes we all have problems at one point or another, but most of it's due to improper design, setup, or planning......IMO most people have problems with sump setups, due to poor planning....Most overflow their sumps, because they don't know how to properly setup their water levels......Some don't know how to account for back syphon to the sump/fuge area......some DIY sumps are just made poorly with to thin of a material and crack, some don't take any necessary precautions to limit the back flow of water from the main tank in event of power outage.....
All these things can be addressed if you seek the proper sources and they are out there.....First on sump design, Melevs site is a really resourceful sight full of good information, and he even talks about material thickness and such.....I would recommend before you build your sump take your dimensions to an acrylics fabricator and let them look it over for structural soundness......They actually know the material better and know if it will hold that given body of water when actually full....
Back syphoning from the main tank is inevitable to a degree.....You can employ several safety measures to limit the amount, from check valves which alot of people will tell you that they jam, or freeze!!!! That does happen from time to time, but it usually just doesn't happen overnight........This is a device that should be checked during routine maintenance IMO to see if it functioning properly.....I prefer to use the clear Tru Union check valves so I can visual see the valve in operation and if it is fully closing as it should and it will also allow me to pull the piece from the plumbing system and rebuild or clean if something were to lodge inside of it which happens due to people not having some type of safety to prevent snails from getting into their plumbing.....
Another area of back syphoning occurs when your submerged return pipes back syphon water to the sump.......We all have are returns somewhat submerged to a degree....Back syphoning can be limited in this area again by the use of employing "syphon break" holes.....These holes are very simple and cost no money and about 10 seconds of your time...these holes are drilled in your return pipe just under the water line......With them just being under the water line in the MT, in the event the power would go out it would only drain to where the hole is drilled and the syphon would be broken......Again this comes into play with setting the proper water level in the sump area....You can employ all these safety measures and run your water level to high in the sump area and overflow the sump, due to not enough room to handle the back flow.......
 

acrylic51

Active Member
Originally Posted by Joshd123
I would say 90% do run sumps but without issues? I think everyone has had a issue with a sump. I know I have. I DIY everything on my very first saltwater setup I had ALL KINDS of problems. I read everything I could get my hands on and it was before I knew about the good people on this site. There is ALOT of stuff that the books do not tell ya HAHA. I have gained very much from reading on SWF.com But I really do think everyone has a problem with something at one time or another when doing Saltwater Sump or not.
Again you stated you learned alot from SWF.com, but I feel your resources are rather limited or narrow if you only use this source of information...There are tons of other places that will offer you many wide views on the area if you take the time to read and ask questions........Again everyone will have issues the first time around, but if you ask the people that have been doing it, yes they've had an issue maybe???, but you learn from the mistake and go on.....You don't rule out a very positive avenue, because of poor planning or improper setup.....
I'd still be curious as to how the flood occurred???? Just because it's a LFS, doesn't mean they even know the safety measures to limit these problems.....
 

beadmaker

Member
not sure why the pump failed but the tank did back siphon. thanks acrylic I wondered how they did that. ok so you have the siphon break holes. power goes out siphon is broke. power comes back on and your not home. will the siphon recover when the main tank level returns to normal?
 

acrylic51

Active Member
With the syphon break holes in place and the water level is set correctly in your sump, you shouldn't have any issues with flooding your sump.....I still don't understand how a pump failure caused a flood other than the volute splitting.....Sounds like they didn't take any safety precautions.....it's super easy to overfill your sump during a water change or what not, but you have to pay close attention if your sump will barely hold the overflow.....
 
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