Carbon & Nitrate

[westwind77]

Can Carbon reduce Nitrate? From what I have read, not directly, but it can help absorb organics which lead to Nitrate down the road. Esentially Skimmers work by removing the organics that lead to nitrate, correct? I ask this because I previously had a 75g with 2 HOB bio-wheel 330's & minimal LR, and my numbers were all extremly low, even using tap water! I now have a 110g now using 2 Eheim Wet/Dry canister filters and moderate amount of LR and my nitrates are between 20-50, but these do not use carbon. I would think the Eheim filters are better then 2 HOB's?!?! The only difference I can see is the carbon that goes in the media pads. I am curous what the experts have to say

. Fish population is actually less in the 110g currently.

 

[scsinet]

What does your filter maintenance regimen look like? Canister filters can be nitrate factories if they are not meticulously maintained.
Do you have coral or sensitive inverts (anemones, clams, etc) in the tank? If not, I wouldn't be overly concerned about a nitrate reading of 50.
Any nitrate removal effected by carbon would be negligible at best. The best tried-and-true means of reducing nitrates are water changes, skimming, and filter maintenance, apart from new stuff like sulfur or anerobic denitrification.

 

[westwind77]

These types of filters do not have any pads inside, just the media. I do have course filter 'pads' around the intakes that I clean once every 2 weeks. The filters I pull out about once a month (not at the same time) and rise the media while doing a water change. The media is always clean, and their is little to no build up at the bottom of the filters. I want to add coral but I'm not going to do that until I can get a handle on the Nitrates. I bought the new MH light for that reason, but cant really put it to use I do a 20% WC once a month. Since I do not have a sump and no physical place to put a skimmer I have to come up with another 'trick' to get them down.

 

[scsinet]

What kind of "media" ??

 

[beaslbob]

Regardless of what filter media you use, the bio wheel filled with algae was an extremely important part of keeping nitrates low. Now you not only don't have the bio wheel you also have a wet dry which is extremely efficient in creating nitrates.
So to get nitrates/phosphates/carbon dioxide down you need to add plant life like macros to replace the plant action formerly being done with the bio wheel.
my .02

 

[drsteve2001]

I keeping hearing people on here to add plant life like macros......dont see many listed or any listed on SWF.com...any suggestions on some good plant life to add? I have srong lighting in my tank( a 250w halide on a 54 gallon)

 

[westwind77]

Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/3217736
What kind of "media" ??
Currently 6 baskets (3 in each filter)
Filter 1
3 baskets containing Eheim SUBSTRAT Pro
Filter 2
1 basket with Eheim SUBSTRAT Pro
1 basket with SeaChem Matrix
1 basket with Seachem De Nitrate
I am really torn at what to try right now based on what my limted options are.
Part of me wants to try Carbon in one of basekts to see if that makes a difference but the other part wants to take everything out and replace it ALL with the SeaChem De Nitrate in one and the SeaChem Matrix in the other filter.
From what I read and hear the current filter/media combo will not take care of Nitrates, but if I switch media it will, to what extent will not be know until it is tested out.
I know people have put LR in their canisters but I want to make that a last resort as I am not sure this filter will operate properly like that because it empties and fills.
beaslbob - interesting, i knew the biowheels did 'some' good but am amazed they did that much, thanks for that info!

 

[beaslbob]

Originally Posted by drsteve2001
http:///forum/post/3217838
I keeping hearing people on here to add plant life like macros......dont see many listed or any listed on SWF.com...any suggestions on some good plant life to add? I have srong lighting in my tank( a 250w halide on a 54 gallon)
I little bit depends on what type of tank you have. The various caulerpas and extremely good at balancing out the tank but can not be sent to some states like california. And they are reported to have bad side effects to some corals especially sps types. Caulerpa profilera does good at lower lighting but IME grape caulerpa (racemosa?) does much better with higher lighting.
Chaetomorphia (brillo pad) is a good grower and just expands to whatever container it is in.
Some like halimeda, shaving brushes, mermaid fans need almost reef like lighting and calcium. But they are much slower growers but with sufficient quantities can maintain aquariums. Some even report the halimeda "grows like weeds" after they started dripping kalk.
Of course you could use plain ole hair algae (and cyano) in an algae truf scrubber as well.
I got my initial "seed" cultures on line but after that from locals at club meetings.
my .02

 

[beaslbob]

Originally Posted by westwind77
http:///forum/post/3217871
...
beaslbob - interesting, i knew the biowheels did 'some' good but am amazed they did that much, thanks for that info!
sometimes we overlook the old stuff then wonder what's happening.
You're welcome

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/3217504
What does your filter maintenance regimen look like? Canister filters can be nitrate factories if they are not meticulously maintained.
I think I know what you mean by the term "nitrate factory"; but I've never really gotten the logic behind the term. Any tank is going to produce a given amount of nitrate. It has to, or ammonia.nitrite will rise. Canisters do nothing to get rid of nitrate, but they don't produce any more nitrate than LR. But good LR will convert the nitrate produced by the aerobic bacteria to nitrogen---using anaerobic bacteria which isn't present (in any quantity) in canister or other media-filled filters. This is probably just a sticking point for me; I know the accumulation of crap in any media will produce excess nitrate and frequent cleaning is the answer. However, if you have an under-serviced canister filter and just remove it (doing nothing else)---isn't your nitrate level going to stay the about the same?

 

[beaslbob]

+1 on the entire "nitrate factory"
I go a little bit further by recommending increasing nitrate consumers vrs limiting nitrates. By using macro (and other) algaes it just doesn't make any difference what else is going on. Besides the entire tank is just one nitrate factory anyway.
my .02

 

[westwind77]

Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/3217910
Canisters do nothing to get rid of nitrate...
I question your comment, I think historically you are correct, but with advancements in filter media I think that has changed, yes/no?
For example, the SeaChem products I have been mentioning, plus the reviews I have seen ALL say they have seen significant reductions in Nitrate by using this in their canister filters.
Cut & Paste from the 'Matrix':
"These macropores are ideally sized for the support of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. This allows Matrix™, unlike other forms of biomedia, to remove nitrate along with ammonia and nitrite, simultaneously and in the same filter."
Cut & Paste from the 'DeNitrate':
"Live” rocks or reef rocks remove nitrate by anaerobic denitrification. de nitrate removes nitrate by the same process.
Like I was saying, I have yet to see one negative review of either, and I have gone through about 75.

 

[scsinet]

Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/3217910
Canisters do nothing to get rid of nitrate, but they don't produce any more nitrate than LR. But good LR will convert the nitrate produced by the aerobic bacteria to nitrogen---using anaerobic bacteria which isn't present (in any quantity) in canister or other media-filled filters. This is probably just a sticking point for me; I know the accumulation of crap in any media will produce excess nitrate and frequent cleaning is the answer. However, if you have an under-serviced canister filter and just remove it (doing nothing else)---isn't your nitrate level going to stay the about the same?

Originally Posted by beaslbob
http:///forum/post/3217942
+1 on the entire "nitrate factory"

I'm not trying to suggest that canister filters somehow generate nitrates out of nothing...
It's not that canister filters themselves are the problem, it's the behaviors that surround them. If you look around, you'll probably find that most canister filters are under-serviced. As opposed to a filter sock that's easily yanked out and washed, canisters are frequently neglected because of the relative pain in opening them up and getting to them, causing detritus to get trapped in the media and just rot, generating hoards of nitrate that never had to be generated in the first place, had they been skimmed or otherwise removed from the water column prior to breakdown. If people see detritus building up in the corners of their tank, they'll usually siphon it out first chance they get. If you see a full skimmer cup, you empty it. But most canisters - since most are opaque - give you no visibility into how bad the inside has gotten, so they do not get serviced like they should. Because canisters achieve very high levels of water polishing, their filter media gets clogged very quickly, and the flow rates around the detritus trapped in the media form a perfect environment for facilititating nitrogen breakdown.

 

[beaslbob]

understand SCSInet.
My Fw tanks have no filters at all. Again 0 nitrates, 0 phosphates, and a pH of 8.4-8.8 even with peat moss in the substrate.
my 55g does have a "wet/dry" which is nothing more then a wastbasket filled with crushed oyster shells. I clean the shells 2-3 times per year. no other mechanical filtration is present. Including no skimmer.
my wife's 29g with soft corals has no filter other then a refugium with macro algaes.
All of those tanks have no water changes.
So in my operation it is not about removing anything before it decomposes to nitrates. But rather just the opposite. Instead I simply recycle the resulting nitrates/phosphates/carbon dioxide into fish food and oxygen. Sure I do some exporting by harvesting algae but even that is infrequent.
And that is the reason I find the nitrate generator statements so amazing.
my .02

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/3217979
I'm not trying to suggest that canister filters somehow generate nitrates out of nothing...
It's not that canister filters themselves are the problem, it's the behaviors that surround them. If you look around, you'll probably find that most canister filters are under-serviced. As opposed to a filter sock that's easily yanked out and washed, canisters are frequently neglected because of the relative pain in opening them up and getting to them, causing detritus to get trapped in the media and just rot, generating hoards of nitrate that never had to be generated in the first place, had they been skimmed or otherwise removed from the water column prior to breakdown. If people see detritus building up in the corners of their tank, they'll usually siphon it out first chance they get. If you see a full skimmer cup, you empty it. But most canisters - since most are opaque - give you no visibility into how bad the inside has gotten, so they do not get serviced like they should. Because canisters achieve very high levels of water polishing, their filter media gets clogged very quickly, and the flow rates around the detritus trapped in the media form a perfect environment for facilititating nitrogen breakdown.
I agree. I remember (way too long ago) when I cleaned my shiny new canister and was amazed at how much crud the filter removed. Maybe if I cleaned it more often, it wouldn't have appeared to be such a super-cleaner. My main problem with the term "nitrate factory" is (judging from many posts on this forum) that it gives the impression that canisters make nitrates. This concept seems to have really caught on and seems to scare folks who already have canisters in use. It also seem that many canister users are new hobbiests trying to do the best they can with their FW equipment, and I think a PROPERLY MAINTAINED canister can work very well.

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by westwind77
http:///forum/post/3217954
I question your comment, I think historically you are correct, but with advancements in filter media I think that has changed, yes/no?
For example, the SeaChem products I have been mentioning, plus the reviews I have seen ALL say they have seen significant reductions in Nitrate by using this in their canister filters.
Cut & Paste from the 'Matrix':
"These macropores are ideally sized for the support of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. This allows Matrix™, unlike other forms of biomedia, to remove nitrate along with ammonia and nitrite, simultaneously and in the same filter."
Cut & Paste from the 'DeNitrate':
"Live” rocks or reef rocks remove nitrate by anaerobic denitrification. de nitrate removes nitrate by the same process.
Like I was saying, I have yet to see one negative review of either, and I have gone through about 75.
First off; my response considers bith reef and FOWLR tanks; two totally different situations for nitrate concerns. Also, the Sea-Chem products can used several different ways. An out-of-the-box canister filter will do nothing for nitrates. The standard media is a sponge 0r floss, carbon, and some type of bio filter material--usually ceramic. None of these do anything to directly remove nitrates.
I really like Sea-Chem products and their tech-support is 1st rate. Matrix will remove some nitrate, but I think many folks expect it to be a substitute for LR. It isn't. You would need a sump twice the size of your tank to get hold enough Matrix to lower your nitrate to REEF-safe levels. I do think it is a great way to take the high edge off nitrates in a FOWLR. De-Nitrate, IMO, simply is too small and not designed for the high flow rates of most systems. (Check with Sea-Chem, I don't think De-Nitrate is effective at more than about 200gph) It may work in a Nano tank. In any case, you are right about these products (they are both some type of rock and work like LR rubble); they will remove some nitrate. However, IMO & IME, I don't think they are the complete answer to nitrate control; especially in a reef tank. But, again, they will help a little. Also, they should last forever. BTW, I have used them; does anyone know what those rocks are? They obviously aren't limestone, can be used in FW (unlike limestone) ,and Sea-Chem won't tell me (proprietary property).

 

[westwind77]

Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/3218018
The standard media is a sponge 0r floss, carbon, and some type of bio filter material--usually ceramic. None of these do anything to directly remove nitrates.
Yes, that I agree with you on 100%
Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/3218018
You would need a sump twice the size of your tank to get hold enough Matrix to lower your nitrate to REEF-safe levels.
From all the reviews I read people seemed to say if you had nitrates at 20 this brought it down to 0, IMO that is 'safe'. If you have then at 75 or 100 I bet you would be right that it could not pull them down enough to be 'reef safe'. It all depends on what your 'starting numbers' are I think.
Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/3218018
De-Nitrate, IMO, simply is too small and not designed for the high flow rates of most systems. (Check with Sea-Chem, I don't think De-Nitrate is effective at more than about 200gph)
They say 50gph, but I emailed and asked if mine would pass because even though it is higher it fills and empties extending the contact time, waiting on a responce from them now. I have a feeling I will need the Matrix though.
Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/3218018
In any case, you are right about these products (they are both some type of rock and work like LR rubble); they will remove some nitrate. However, IMO & IME, I don't think they are the complete answer to nitrate control; especially in a reef tank. But, again, they will help a little. Also, they should last forever. BTW, I have used them; does anyone know what those rocks are? They obviously aren't limestone, can be used in FW (unlike limestone) ,and Sea-Chem won't tell me (proprietary property).
Yes you are 100% correct, a lot better ways and proper ways to control nitrate that this. I wish I could use them

. I have a feeling I am going to go the Matrix route, but still unsure

 

[westwind77]

I called SeaChem and spoke to them, very nice people! I ended up placing an order for 12L of SeaChem Matrix. I will take Nitrate readings for the next couple days, then I will take them after I make the media switch and report back how much they decrease. Thanks for all the help and thoughts!

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by westwind77
http:///forum/post/3218392
I called SeaChem and spoke to them, very nice people! I ended up placing an order for 12L of SeaChem Matrix. I will take Nitrate readings for the next couple days, then I will take them after I make the media switch and report back how much they decrease. Thanks for all the help and thoughts!
I'm curious to hear how this works for you. As I see it (which generally means squat); if you have enough room for lot so Matrix, there is no reason it shouldn't work. It seems extremely porous and capable of holding anaerobic bacteria. I think some folks think they are going to reduce nitrates by using a bagful in a canister, similar filter, or even a sump. 12L should work.

 

[westwind77]

Ok... so my 12L of Matrix showed up today! I am going to test the Nitrates now, do a 20% water change, re-test the Nitrates, then I am going to switch out all the current media with the Matrix. I will keep a log of the Nitrate after the switch and report back soon. Wish me luck!