Cardinal dying?

[bakerjk12]

I have a 55 gallon FWLR aquarium that has been up and running for a few weeks. We test the water daily and everything has been in check for the most part. 0 Ammonia, less than .25 Nitrite, about 20-40 nitrate. We noticed the nitrate getting a little high so last night we did a 15% water change. We added the salt and tested with the hydrometer before adding the water into the tank. Everything seemed ok. I woke up this morning and one of the cardinals was laying on its side on the bottom of the tank. The other cardinal was doing just fine. The cardinal on its side was still breathing, and would move for a second when I went to touch it, but would sink back down almost immediately. I tested the water levels again, and am still at 0 ammonia, less than .25 nitrite, and about 20 ppm Nitrate. Any ideas??? No other fish in the tank, temp is at 76 degrees. PH was at 8.2

 

[monsinour]

that nitrite reading is probably no good. It is toxic to fish. When did your cycle finish? What else is in the tank?

 

[bakerjk12]

Only other fish is the lawnmower blenny. We got the cardinals first bc they are the tamest fish we plan on having. The tank ran with only live sand for and no salt for about 3 weeks. ran with live rock and salt for about a 5 days, ran with the lawnmower for a week, and now has had the cardinals for about 5 days. As I said, it seemed to be testing ok...I was told 0 nitrite is preferred, but I wouldnt think .25 would cause this....

 

[monsinour]

so let me get this right
3 weeks with water and "live" sand and not actual salt water?
Then you put in salt, mixed it in the tank, and chucked in the rock and left it like that for 5 days?
Then you added fish?
I dont think the "live" sand survived without salt water and then mixing the salt in the tank wasnt good for what was in the sand or on the rocks. I dont think your cycle is finished.

 

[bakerjk12]

correct. I thought the same thing. But in talking to the ppl at my LFS, ( who several have successful corral / reef tanks) hey told me it wouldn't be an issue. They said the cycle would restart when i added the salt. I took the water to them weekly and the said the cycle had finished. So we got the lawnmower and a test kit. Their exact words were "if there are nitrates, then the cycle is complete." Blenny has done fine. Cardinals were fine until we did the water change last night, and one of them still appears to be ok,. The other one just died.

 

[brandonsivek]

Okay, what I am about to say is only my opinion, but this is what I believed happen. When you put in the live sand, then just had it sitting in nothing but fresh water, it more than likely killed everything beneficial in that sand. It would be like buying a plant, not watering it, then after it dies, giving it water. Since everything that was in it more than likely died, THAT is what started the cycle. Taking in account for the time it would take for all the stuff to die off, by the time you added the saltwater and live rock, the cycle had just started. All of the things that died off in the sand probably created an ammonia spike and instead of having a full cycle, you added your fish while the tank was only one week into the cycle. That week could have gotten rid of the ammonia, which is why you are not reading any. If you still have Nitrites, you are not done cycling.
Also, dont always believe what LFS people tell you. They may have nice tanks at home, but they also dont have someone that works for a buisness trying to make money telling them what is good for their tank.

 

[bakerjk12]

Thanks for the responses, I appreciate it. So the Nitrite reading should be 0 and absolutely no higher when the tank is done cycling? I was under the impression that it might vary slightly from week to week, but that as long as it was always .25 or lower, that it shouldn't be an issue. Are you saying that the nitrite should never be anything but 0? Also, what is it about the water change that killed the fish, as they were both doing fine all the way up until the change?

 

[brandonsivek]

In my experience, the Nitrites should ALWAYS be 0. As far as the fish dying after the water change, it could have been shock, but I believe that it was just coincidence with timing, in other words, they wernt doing good before hand either.
I am by no means an expert, so lets see what others have to say.

 

[monsinour]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonSivek http:///forum/thread/383821/cardinal-dying#post_3359571
In my experience, the Nitrites should ALWAYS be 0. As far as the fish dying after the water change, it could have been shock, but I believe that it was just coincidence with timing, in other words, they wernt doing good before hand either.
I am by no means an expert, so lets see what others have to say.
no expert here either but I agree. nitrites should always be 0. Imagine running a marathon when your sweat is poisonous. Kind of doable, but really dangerous.
What kind of water did you use for the water change? I would be watching the water closely and always have some mixed water ready for a water change.

 

[bakerjk12]

We are using tap water, but we are pre-mixing the salt and adding de-chlorinator ("Start Right") prior to putting it in the tank. We also always ensure the salinity of 1.024. My LFS sells jugs of "ocean water," but do I really need to spend $20 on 5 gallons of water?? Besides testing the water daily and monitoring ammonia, PH, Nitrites, and Nitrates, what else can I do? We have already invested $1,000 in this tank and I have done about 3 solid weeks worth of research, so I am open to suggestions.

 

[brandonsivek]

How long are you letting the premixed water that your making mature before putting it in the tank? Also, a lot of city water has not only Chlorine but Chloramines in the water, which are even worse for a tank. Make sure that your dechlorinator SAYS that is also rids Chloramines.

 

[dmanatee]

I know some one else is going to chime in, but watch the tap water...and when you can invest in an ro/di unit. Tap water and well water typicaly contain phosphates and other "nifty additives" like arsinic and yep...copper. The phosephate will make our tanks bloom a lovely hairy green or brown algae. i should know, I work as a Civil Engineer and deal with the municipal water system for my town in montana quite frequently. I myself have well water and still have to buy water at walmart because of the phosphate and I live on top of a mountain. (I just purchased an RO/DI unit myself) Trust me...you will appreciate how clean your water is, and you wont have to add anything to your water but salt.
Oh...and I dont know about your town but most if you call the community water source they will come test your water, but a TDS meter is also a great investment.
It may seem like alot of "stuff" but your fish will thank you....

 

[monsinour]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakerjk12 http:///forum/thread/383821/cardinal-dying#post_3359584
We are using tap water, but we are pre-mixing the salt and adding de-chlorinator ("Start Right") prior to putting it in the tank.
Either find a place that sells RO water by the gallon or get yourself a RO/DI unit for yourself. I am saving for a RO/DI unit. Until I get one, I go to sprawlmart weekly to get RO water by the gallon at $0.37. I mix it in a rubbermaid 18 gallon tub. I usually mix about 11 gallons at a time. My big issue with tap water, even with "de-chlorinator" is that it doesnt remove the flouride or any of the other 'contaminates' from the water. IF you have no source of RO water, get ahold of your public works department and ask them for a water quality report. You have to know whats going into your tank.
We also always ensure the salinity of 1.024.
Good number to have. Might want to consider to raise it to 1.025 if you plan on corals.
My LFS sells jugs of "ocean water," but do I really need to spend $20 on 5 gallons of water??
Abasolutely not. Those are "new hobbiest" traps. Even better, tell the LFS that if they add the words "live water" they could charge more for the same product.
Besides testing the water daily and monitoring ammonia, PH, Nitrites, and Nitrates, what else can I do? We have already invested $1,000 in this tank and I have done about 3 solid weeks worth of research, so I am open to suggestions.
For right now, theres not much you can do. Monitor the levels, any kind of reading on ammonia do an imediate big water change (30% or more). Any kind of reading on nitrite, do an immediate decent sized water change (15% to 25%). Schedule a time once a week to do a water change (10% to 15%). Keep looking at the fish and check them for wierd behavior. Ensure that they are eating well.
What do you feed the fish?
Hopefully your not colorblind and you can read the blue up there.

 

[bakerjk12]

Yes it removes both. Normally the water sits about 5-10 minutes or so. I haven't ever been given advice on a timeframe for the water to sit....what should I allow it to sit? If the easiest route is to buy the ocean water I can do that, I just want to do this all correctly.

 

[monsinour]

The water has to mix for atleast 24 hours before you can use it. We have to ensure that the salt is completely disolved in the water. Like I suggested, get a tub or trashcan for mixing up water in.

 

[brandonsivek]

Awwww man, you gotta let it sit way longer than that. I have heard some people on here letting it sit for a couple to 3 days, and this has powerheads in it for circulation and a heater to match the temp in the tank. The dechlorinator needs time to make a chemical bond with the chlorine.

 

[bakerjk12]

My advanced apology, what is RO water? Distilled? Or the station where you fill it yourself?
We are also adding bio-boost to the aquarium. As far as food we are using Mysis Shrimp for the cardinals and Formula 2 for the Blenny, although he doesn't go right after it like he should. Im thinking the crabs get most of it, he eats off the rocks.

 

[bakerjk12]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonSivek http:///forum/thread/383821/cardinal-dying#post_3359596
Awwww man, you gotta let it sit way longer than that. I have heard some people on here letting it sit for a couple to 3 days, and this has powerheads in it for circulation and a heater to match the temp in the tank. The dechlorinator needs time to make a chemical bond with the chlorine.
That would probably explain why the water change killed the fish huh? All the weeks of research and I never thought to join a forum... damn.

 

[dmanatee]

RO/DI Reverse Osmosis Dionization..Also the walmart in my town has an RO Filling station next to the culigan water. They say that all walmarts are the same but I havent seen one in other stores?

 

[monsinour]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakerjk12 http:///forum/thread/383821/cardinal-dying#post_3359597
My advanced apology, what is RO water? Distilled? Or the station where you fill it yourself?
We are also adding bio-boost to the aquarium. As far as food we are using Mysis Shrimp for the cardinals and Formula 2 for the Blenny, although he doesn't go right after it like he should. Im thinking the crabs get most of it, he eats off the rocks.
Mysis is good stuff. As long as you have algea on the rocks for the blenny, then you should be ok. Have you tried algea wafers for the blenny? Its a thought and I am not sure how good they are anyways.
RO = Reverse Osmosis If you have a sprawlmart, and there is a filling station that is serviced by Culigan, then that should be RO water. If not, you should be able to buy RO water bottled for about $1 a gallon including the plastic jug. It might be labeld as drinking water.