chato not growing
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hurt
Active Member
To make a comparison between two different systems is not practical. Each system is totally independent of the other. How much LR, LS, flow, H20 volume, type of skimmer, feeding habits, bioload, berlin, dsb, jaubert, etc. A better question would be what were nitrates and phosphates before and after the addition of the fuge? Two different systems that each have caulerpa will most likely experience different growth rates according to load/filtration on each tank. You can't mix chaeto with caulerpa in the same fuge to compare growth rates, so I'm not sure exactly how a true comparison between the two could be made. I do know that one cup of caulerpa serrulata has a dry weight of 2.95 grams, while a cup of chaetomorpha sp. has a dry weight of 5.7 grams. So to have the same amount of growth you only need half as much chaeto. They both work, but one is much less labor intensive.
Before I installed my fuge my nitrates where between 10-15 ppm. Since than 0. When I first set up my fuge I made the mistake of putting some CC that was given to me into my fuge. My chaeto grew like an absolute weed, but my nitrates were still around 5. So I took out the CC and put in 3 inches of oolitic. Since then my nitrates have dropped to 0, but my chaeto doesn't grow as fast as before with the CC(more nitrates to feed off). I usually take about 2/3 of this out every six weeks right now. I also take out half of the chaeto in my overflow every two weeks. This is an older pic of my ~10g fuge, but I have since incorporated xenia as well.
Squidd don’t you have stonies in your DT?
Before I installed my fuge my nitrates where between 10-15 ppm. Since than 0. When I first set up my fuge I made the mistake of putting some CC that was given to me into my fuge. My chaeto grew like an absolute weed, but my nitrates were still around 5. So I took out the CC and put in 3 inches of oolitic. Since then my nitrates have dropped to 0, but my chaeto doesn't grow as fast as before with the CC(more nitrates to feed off). I usually take about 2/3 of this out every six weeks right now. I also take out half of the chaeto in my overflow every two weeks. This is an older pic of my ~10g fuge, but I have since incorporated xenia as well.
Squidd don’t you have stonies in your DT?
squidd
Active Member
To make a comparison between two different systems is not practical. Each system is totally independent of the other. How much LR, LS, flow, H20 volume, type of skimmer, feeding habits, bioload, berlin, dsb, jaubert, etc.
Actually, that is the point...comparing "systems" and flow rates and light requirements and LS /LR and skimmed or un skimmed fuge water...
Averaging H20 Volumes is simple enough..I get this amount out of 20 gallon fuge, you get that amount out of 10 gallon, double it and are the relative volumes comparable..??
If necessary we could take a "harvest" and dry it and compare weights rather than buckets full of wet algae... And do it again in 4 weeks to see if it's consistent
Even if they were averaged out "equal" the point would be made...that being... "Different" systems (setups/Macros/flows/lights) CAN get the same desired results and effect that being a clean tank free of nuscience algae and happy and healthy corals..
Having "0"s across the board is NOT the end all proof that a system is working...you can get "0" readings and have a tank full of nuscience algae, a diatom bloom and cyno infested bottom...each of those "nuscience problems at any given point is sucking up all available malnutrients and taking a reading will result in a "0"...(you can read that again and again on the board "My tank is green/brown/red/, but my reading are all "0"s..??)
Saying what works for you..or me..or someone else is fine..prove it post a picture and tell us how "you" did it...but to say every on "else" is miss-informed.. is foolish...
Yes, I raise stonies...Yes my readings are all "0"s...but more importantly, my system works, is relatively maintenance free, I have no nuscience algae, I don't have to "feed" iron or any supplements to get my Macro to grow, My corals are happy, and the system can be duplicated by anyone willing to follow the "formula"..
Mixing and matching or trying something else...and your on your own...post pics...
Actually, that is the point...comparing "systems" and flow rates and light requirements and LS /LR and skimmed or un skimmed fuge water...
Averaging H20 Volumes is simple enough..I get this amount out of 20 gallon fuge, you get that amount out of 10 gallon, double it and are the relative volumes comparable..??
If necessary we could take a "harvest" and dry it and compare weights rather than buckets full of wet algae... And do it again in 4 weeks to see if it's consistent
Even if they were averaged out "equal" the point would be made...that being... "Different" systems (setups/Macros/flows/lights) CAN get the same desired results and effect that being a clean tank free of nuscience algae and happy and healthy corals..
Having "0"s across the board is NOT the end all proof that a system is working...you can get "0" readings and have a tank full of nuscience algae, a diatom bloom and cyno infested bottom...each of those "nuscience problems at any given point is sucking up all available malnutrients and taking a reading will result in a "0"...(you can read that again and again on the board "My tank is green/brown/red/, but my reading are all "0"s..??)
Saying what works for you..or me..or someone else is fine..prove it post a picture and tell us how "you" did it...but to say every on "else" is miss-informed.. is foolish...
Yes, I raise stonies...Yes my readings are all "0"s...but more importantly, my system works, is relatively maintenance free, I have no nuscience algae, I don't have to "feed" iron or any supplements to get my Macro to grow, My corals are happy, and the system can be duplicated by anyone willing to follow the "formula"..
Mixing and matching or trying something else...and your on your own...post pics...
hurt
Active Member
Originally Posted by Squidd
Actually, that is the point...comparing "systems" and flow rates and light requirements and LS /LR and skimmed or un skimmed fuge water...
I’m a bit confused that you are actually trying to compare two different systems that are completely independent of each other. No two systems are ever the same. It’s virtually impossible to replicate two systems exactly the same. Such could never be done accurately. Way too many variables to try to make a comparison. The amount of growth of any macro algae is highly dependent upon the bio-load and other filtration methods a tank. You speak of water volumes, how about age of system, type of skimmer, size of skimmer, amount of fish/inverts/corals, amount of flow, type of food-frozen/flake/home made, # of feeding per week, amount of feedings per day, source of water from different RO units, size/age of DSB/ plenum or not/ amount of LR, exact same flow rates and flow patterns, chemicals dosed, etc….point being it would be very difficult to make two systems completely identical. If you would devise a formula for such it would contain at least 30 different variables if you are actually trying to make a true comparison with some meaningful relationship. And trying to measure those variables is what I’d really like to see someone do accurately.
The only way you could possibly get a somewhat accurate result would be running caulerpa only for one month, then chaeto only for one month in one system. All other variables of the tank would have to be kept constant during those two months, nothing die, same feeding schedule, water changes/etc etc, I could go on for days how many different variables would have to be kept constant. Too many variables to make your comparison between two different and independent systems. You can’t keep two different macro algae’s in the same fuge(especially caulerpa with others). Way too much chemical warfare. If you could though, you would only need half as much volume of chaeto to equal the same amount of growth of Caulerpa Serrulata
As far as testing 0 for phosphates and nitrates, most test kits I do agree with you. Most aren’t accurate enough to detect trace amounts but some come very close. I use Salifert tests which are middle of the road. But my tests have always been zero using Salifert tests, and I have never had cyano, hair, or any other nuisance algae for that matter. So I have little doubt the true nutrient load on my tank is always kept in check.
On to the subject of Caulerpa’s. The reason I asked if you had stonies is because caulerpas have been shown to retard the growth of stonies
. I’m not sure if you feed your caulerpa to your DT or not, but doing so(caulerpin and caulerpicin) has also been shown to cause some creatures to suffer. Also tanks that run Caulerpa should always run carbon as well. In addition to all these great characteristics of caulerpa, you must run your fuge light 24/7 if you are going to attempt to keep it in stasis as well as the constant pruning. Not ideal at all for a true “fuge” and especially if you want pod production. Not to mention the added heat into your system when your MH’s and fuge light are on at the same time during the day(something I surely don’t want to deal with my lighting-720 watts on my 55g). A member of our LFC had a beautiful 120g SPS that crashed and killed everything in the system due to caulerpa going sexual, and that was with a fuge that was lit 24/7.
To me, your playing with fire with caulerpa, it is way too labor intensive and definitely not guaranteed from going sexual. Caulerpa is definitely not for the beginner aquarist. It does work, I’m not disputing that, but you are always taking a chance with caulerpa. Something I am not willing to do. I just don’t see any benefits at all to running caulerpa over chaeto. Chaeto also has much more surface area for microorganisms.
Mixing and matching or trying something else...and your on your own...post pics...
Since you asked, here are a few pics of my 55g SPS reef with my cheapo camera. About 20lbs of LR is currently out of the tank(center-right) that had to be killed and is currently curing.
BTW, where is all your coralline algae at? My tank was scraped two weeks ago.
Actually, that is the point...comparing "systems" and flow rates and light requirements and LS /LR and skimmed or un skimmed fuge water...
I’m a bit confused that you are actually trying to compare two different systems that are completely independent of each other. No two systems are ever the same. It’s virtually impossible to replicate two systems exactly the same. Such could never be done accurately. Way too many variables to try to make a comparison. The amount of growth of any macro algae is highly dependent upon the bio-load and other filtration methods a tank. You speak of water volumes, how about age of system, type of skimmer, size of skimmer, amount of fish/inverts/corals, amount of flow, type of food-frozen/flake/home made, # of feeding per week, amount of feedings per day, source of water from different RO units, size/age of DSB/ plenum or not/ amount of LR, exact same flow rates and flow patterns, chemicals dosed, etc….point being it would be very difficult to make two systems completely identical. If you would devise a formula for such it would contain at least 30 different variables if you are actually trying to make a true comparison with some meaningful relationship. And trying to measure those variables is what I’d really like to see someone do accurately.
The only way you could possibly get a somewhat accurate result would be running caulerpa only for one month, then chaeto only for one month in one system. All other variables of the tank would have to be kept constant during those two months, nothing die, same feeding schedule, water changes/etc etc, I could go on for days how many different variables would have to be kept constant. Too many variables to make your comparison between two different and independent systems. You can’t keep two different macro algae’s in the same fuge(especially caulerpa with others). Way too much chemical warfare. If you could though, you would only need half as much volume of chaeto to equal the same amount of growth of Caulerpa Serrulata
As far as testing 0 for phosphates and nitrates, most test kits I do agree with you. Most aren’t accurate enough to detect trace amounts but some come very close. I use Salifert tests which are middle of the road. But my tests have always been zero using Salifert tests, and I have never had cyano, hair, or any other nuisance algae for that matter. So I have little doubt the true nutrient load on my tank is always kept in check.
On to the subject of Caulerpa’s. The reason I asked if you had stonies is because caulerpas have been shown to retard the growth of stonies
To me, your playing with fire with caulerpa, it is way too labor intensive and definitely not guaranteed from going sexual. Caulerpa is definitely not for the beginner aquarist. It does work, I’m not disputing that, but you are always taking a chance with caulerpa. Something I am not willing to do. I just don’t see any benefits at all to running caulerpa over chaeto. Chaeto also has much more surface area for microorganisms.
Mixing and matching or trying something else...and your on your own...post pics...
Since you asked, here are a few pics of my 55g SPS reef with my cheapo camera. About 20lbs of LR is currently out of the tank(center-right) that had to be killed and is currently curing.
BTW, where is all your coralline algae at? My tank was scraped two weeks ago.
squidd
Active Member
I’m a bit confused that you are actually trying to compare two different systems that are completely independent of each other. No two systems are the same. It’s virtually impossible to replicate two systems exactly the same. Such could never be done accurately. Way too many variables to try to make a comparison.
I fuly understand the scientific method and controled testing proceedures...But, I'm not trying to compare "Apples to Apples"...or even apples to oranges..
I'm just tired of hearing "Apples are the best and if you eat an orange your a fool and gonna die"...type statements..
Your hungry, you eat, your satisfied.. Either one will get the desired result...
I’m not sure if you feed your caulerpa to your DT or not, but doing so(caulerpin and caulerpicin) has also been shown to cause some creatures to suffer.
Why would i want to put calurpa and the absorbed malnutrients "back" in my tank...do you dump your skimmer cup back in your tank...??
Not ideal at all for a true “fuge”
Not running a "fuge" (I think your refering to a refugium) I'm running an Algal Scrubber and have always stated so...
Caulerpa is definitely not for the beginner aquarist. It does work, I’m not disputing that,
I agree and have always stated a warning that I run "against the flow" as far as setup, and have never reccomended Calurpa without the cavaets of it's requirements...
As far as playing with fire ...I've been doing it successfully for several years and have NEVER gotten burnt...
BTW where is all the coralline algae in your DT?
I think it's ugly...so I scrape it out....
Always have...
I fuly understand the scientific method and controled testing proceedures...But, I'm not trying to compare "Apples to Apples"...or even apples to oranges..
I'm just tired of hearing "Apples are the best and if you eat an orange your a fool and gonna die"...type statements..
Your hungry, you eat, your satisfied.. Either one will get the desired result...
I’m not sure if you feed your caulerpa to your DT or not, but doing so(caulerpin and caulerpicin) has also been shown to cause some creatures to suffer.
Why would i want to put calurpa and the absorbed malnutrients "back" in my tank...do you dump your skimmer cup back in your tank...??
Not ideal at all for a true “fuge”
Not running a "fuge" (I think your refering to a refugium) I'm running an Algal Scrubber and have always stated so...
Caulerpa is definitely not for the beginner aquarist. It does work, I’m not disputing that,
I agree and have always stated a warning that I run "against the flow" as far as setup, and have never reccomended Calurpa without the cavaets of it's requirements...
As far as playing with fire ...I've been doing it successfully for several years and have NEVER gotten burnt...
BTW where is all the coralline algae in your DT?
I think it's ugly...so I scrape it out....
hurt
Active Member
Your hungry, you eat, your satisfied.. Either one will get the desired result...
Your comparison is apples to oranges though, not a valid comparison unless you have identical systems, which you/I/anyone would have an extremely difficult time replicating. As far as both getting the same result, I do agree to a certain point, the only difference is one is much more needy and has quite a few side effects I'm certainly not fond of, especially retarding the growth of stonies.
Not running a "fuge" (I think your refering to a refugium) I'm running an Algal Scrubber and have always stated so...
So you do have predators in your fuge? I'm certainly aware of the names of each and their characteristics, however usually they are one in the same how they are set up. I should have been more specific...my bad
...
Why would i want to put calurpa and the absorbed malnutrients "back" in my tank...do you dump your skimmer cup back in your tank...??
LEFT FIELD....Are you really serious???? Comparing putting raw skimmate to putting caulerpa back in the tank is about the same level of comparison you were trying to make with two different systems. That's insane and no one in their right mind would ever do that. Many people feed their tangs directly with macro's from their fuge, as do I. You honestly have never heard of anyone feeding macros to their fish?:notsure: :thinking:??. Not even remotely close to dumping a cup of skimmate into your tank, I have no idea where this analogy came from...
I think it's ugly...so I scrape it out....
Always have...
Um...that was my point...It was apparent to me you scrapped your tank directly before you took that pic
...It's virtually impossible for me to keep up with my coralline...so much Ca/ALK to keep all my stonies happy
.
Your comparison is apples to oranges though, not a valid comparison unless you have identical systems, which you/I/anyone would have an extremely difficult time replicating. As far as both getting the same result, I do agree to a certain point, the only difference is one is much more needy and has quite a few side effects I'm certainly not fond of, especially retarding the growth of stonies.
Not running a "fuge" (I think your refering to a refugium) I'm running an Algal Scrubber and have always stated so...
So you do have predators in your fuge? I'm certainly aware of the names of each and their characteristics, however usually they are one in the same how they are set up. I should have been more specific...my bad
Why would i want to put calurpa and the absorbed malnutrients "back" in my tank...do you dump your skimmer cup back in your tank...??
LEFT FIELD....Are you really serious???? Comparing putting raw skimmate to putting caulerpa back in the tank is about the same level of comparison you were trying to make with two different systems. That's insane and no one in their right mind would ever do that. Many people feed their tangs directly with macro's from their fuge, as do I. You honestly have never heard of anyone feeding macros to their fish?:notsure: :thinking:??. Not even remotely close to dumping a cup of skimmate into your tank, I have no idea where this analogy came from...
I think it's ugly...so I scrape it out....
Um...that was my point...It was apparent to me you scrapped your tank directly before you took that pic
hurt
Active Member
Originally Posted by sign guy
what is a algal scrubber?
do I need to change the light from a 50 50 to something more yellow?
thanks
Vegetable filter/algae scrubber are one in the same. I posted a pic of mine, and squidd did of his. It's merely a place to grow and harvest macro algae. Mine however is also a refugium, free from predators and pods reproduce like rabbits on a 12/12 cycle.
Yes I would change your bulb to something more yellow/lower K. I personally run a PC 65w 10K, only because I also have xenia in my fuge. If I only had macros I would opt for 6700K.
what is a algal scrubber?
do I need to change the light from a 50 50 to something more yellow?
thanks
Vegetable filter/algae scrubber are one in the same. I posted a pic of mine, and squidd did of his. It's merely a place to grow and harvest macro algae. Mine however is also a refugium, free from predators and pods reproduce like rabbits on a 12/12 cycle.
Yes I would change your bulb to something more yellow/lower K. I personally run a PC 65w 10K, only because I also have xenia in my fuge. If I only had macros I would opt for 6700K.
hurt
Active Member
Originally Posted by sign guy
Vegetable filter/algae scrubber is the same as a fuge then
Usually, but not always. A fuge is merely a place free from predations, usually intended for the purpose of producing pods, mysis shrimp, etc. for your DT, most true fuges are not lit 24/7 as this does not promote pod reproduction. I don't have any predators in my sump/fuge/algae scrubber, whatever you wish to call it, and that's the main reason I refer to it as a fuge. I also have heaters, skimmers, LR, LS, my ATO/Kalk topoff, in my "fuge"...
You could have an algae scrubber with with fish in it, then you've lost your "fuge" designation and it's only a "algae scrubber"...oh well..
I'd go with a 6700K/plant bulb.
Vegetable filter/algae scrubber is the same as a fuge then
Usually, but not always. A fuge is merely a place free from predations, usually intended for the purpose of producing pods, mysis shrimp, etc. for your DT, most true fuges are not lit 24/7 as this does not promote pod reproduction. I don't have any predators in my sump/fuge/algae scrubber, whatever you wish to call it, and that's the main reason I refer to it as a fuge. I also have heaters, skimmers, LR, LS, my ATO/Kalk topoff, in my "fuge"...
You could have an algae scrubber with with fish in it, then you've lost your "fuge" designation and it's only a "algae scrubber"...oh well..
I'd go with a 6700K/plant bulb.
sign guy
Active Member
Originally Posted by Hurt
Usually, but not always. A fuge is merely a place free from predations, usually intended for the purpose of producing pods, mysis shrimp, etc. for your DT, most true fuges are not lit 24/7 as this does not promote pod reproduction. I don't have any predators in my sump/fuge/algae scrubber, whatever you wish to call it, and that's the main reason I refer to it as a fuge. I also have heaters, skimmers, LR, LS, my ATO/Kalk topoff, in my "fuge"...
You could have an algae scrubber with with fish in it, then you've lost your "fuge" designation and it's only a "algae scrubber"...oh well..
I'd go with a 6700K/plant bulb.
Usually, but not always. A fuge is merely a place free from predations, usually intended for the purpose of producing pods, mysis shrimp, etc. for your DT, most true fuges are not lit 24/7 as this does not promote pod reproduction. I don't have any predators in my sump/fuge/algae scrubber, whatever you wish to call it, and that's the main reason I refer to it as a fuge. I also have heaters, skimmers, LR, LS, my ATO/Kalk topoff, in my "fuge"...
You could have an algae scrubber with with fish in it, then you've lost your "fuge" designation and it's only a "algae scrubber"...oh well..
I'd go with a 6700K/plant bulb.
hurt
Active Member
No problem, I finally read this whole thread. I see you already have a 6 in. DSB. What are your nitrates and phosphates reading right now? You say your fuge is 20g, but how much water is in it at it's normal operating level? I see you have 350 gph right now, to me that is probably the reason you aren't seeing good growth.
To give you an idea, my fuge is also a 20g, but normaly operates at ~15g. My actual fuge chamber is only ~7g above the sand bed. I have roughly 600gph going through it, and it always grows the fastest in the areas with
the highest flow(i.e. between bubbles traps, overflow)
So if I were you I'd try to increase your turnover to at least the same(40X), if not greater. Go over to -- and you will find many users up to 70X. Chaeto loves high flow
To give you an idea, my fuge is also a 20g, but normaly operates at ~15g. My actual fuge chamber is only ~7g above the sand bed. I have roughly 600gph going through it, and it always grows the fastest in the areas with
the highest flow(i.e. between bubbles traps, overflow)
So if I were you I'd try to increase your turnover to at least the same(40X), if not greater. Go over to -- and you will find many users up to 70X. Chaeto loves high flow
sign guy
Active Member
Originally Posted by Hurt
No problem, I finally read this whole thread. I see you already have a 6 in. DSB. What are your nitrates and phosphates reading right now? 0 ppm You say your fuge is 20g, but how much water is in it at it's normal operating level? 20 gal I have the bulkhead at the top of the fuge I see you have 350 gph right now, to me that is probably the reason you aren't seeing good growth.what would recomend?
To give you an idea, my fuge is also a 20g, but normaly operates at ~15g. My actual fuge chamber is only ~7g above the sand bed. I have roughly 600gph going through it, and it always grows the fastest in the areas of the highest flow(i.e. between bubbles traps, overflow.
So if I were you I'd try to increase your turnover to at least the same(40X), if not greater. Go over to -- that place gives me a head ach and you will find many users up to 70X. Chaeto loves high flow
Acrylic51 has stated that my gph might be too low as well
thanks
No problem, I finally read this whole thread. I see you already have a 6 in. DSB. What are your nitrates and phosphates reading right now? 0 ppm You say your fuge is 20g, but how much water is in it at it's normal operating level? 20 gal I have the bulkhead at the top of the fuge I see you have 350 gph right now, to me that is probably the reason you aren't seeing good growth.what would recomend?
To give you an idea, my fuge is also a 20g, but normaly operates at ~15g. My actual fuge chamber is only ~7g above the sand bed. I have roughly 600gph going through it, and it always grows the fastest in the areas of the highest flow(i.e. between bubbles traps, overflow.
So if I were you I'd try to increase your turnover to at least the same(40X), if not greater. Go over to -- that place gives me a head ach and you will find many users up to 70X. Chaeto loves high flow
Acrylic51 has stated that my gph might be too low as well
thanks
hurt
Active Member
I wouldn't expect crazy growth by any means with your param's already at 0, that's why I asked about your DSB.
So you utilize all 20 gallons? If so, your looking at 800gph(actual flow) to get to at least 40X turnover. I also dose a cap of Fe every other week with my system. I'm not saying this is absolutely necessary to your system depending upon your water changes, but I only change 8 gallons of water every two weeks in my ~70g system.
So you utilize all 20 gallons? If so, your looking at 800gph(actual flow) to get to at least 40X turnover. I also dose a cap of Fe every other week with my system. I'm not saying this is absolutely necessary to your system depending upon your water changes, but I only change 8 gallons of water every two weeks in my ~70g system.